Forum UI Changes
hpwulola
Posts: 1,297Moderator › admin
Hey everyone! Hope you have been doing well 😊
We made a few visual and QOL changes to the forum. An awesome one to highlight (pun intended) is that now on every discussion, there will be visible highlights on moderator or OP comments. Moderator comments will have a bronze highlight and OP comments will have a blue highlight; this will help people popping into long discussions quickly find relevant information.
We also fixed the picture sizing issue!!! There is now a max sized enforced on all images, so we should not see stretched out images anymore!
In addition, we changed the font color from light blue to white and we removed the all caps setting for discussion headers. We also modified the display format of the tags.
We hope you like these changes, feel free to share your feedback!
Comments
Also, thanks to @Owlx suggestion, we will be enabling the Polls feature! Users can now create polls to discuss features of the game. Please remember to keep the Community Guidelines in mind when creating and interacting with polls!
The highlight feature is pretty!
Awesome, thanks queen @HPWULOLA 🙌🏼
@HPWULOLA - Please don’t take this the wrong way
It’s great to see you engaging on the forum though the changes made are superficial eye candy
What is needed is constant effective moderation because a small minority (you know who you are) of posters are causing problems for the majority. Despite several of the long term members stepping up to affirm the good and critique the bad, we haven’t seen a corresponding response from moderators
There is a simple answer to this problem - promote selected members who have proven their value to the community to moderator status and allow the community to self-regulate
Another relates to warnings received by long term members for attempting to do the right thing by critiquing bad posts. The warnings should be removed but only for those who have proven to add value, again, we know who these people are (hint: they are on a separate Discord channel because this forum is broken)
Without effective moderation this forum will die. I cannot be more clear - either engage fully and moderate properly or hand over moderation to those who are ready and willing to step in or just let the forum die - no-one wants this and it’s not in anyone’s best interest except the trolls
I hope you find this constructive, if I receive a warning that will tell me all I need to know. Otherwise please respond here for all to see then we will all know where we stand
Thank you for reading this post, I hope it is not deleted as that would not be good moderation
Hi @OriginalCaruso, thank you for the comment. Also, I edited your post to un-star the word eye candy - I have no idea why that one gets flagged!
I appreciate this feedback. I know that when moderating the forum, I never want players to feel that we are silencing their feedback of the game. We appreciate open and constructive conversations and value everyone's opinions. Please continue to use the Flag feature if you see posts that you believe violate our TOS. It is important that players maintain respect and understanding during these conversations.
@HPWULOLA - Thank you for your response and for amending my post
I regret this is a lost opportunity to engage with those of us who are really trying to move this forum forward and have a huge amount to contribute but are reluctant to do so because of the lack of effective moderation. Unfortunately your response does not address the issues raised
This is not about silencing feedback. Plain and simple there are at least two individuals who troll the forum, one of whom has been flagged many times as you have requested but is still active, either the flag system is ineffective or a deliberate decision has been made to ignore the behaviour
I ask you to reconsider your response. Please
Thank you
It’s great to see you engaging on the forum though the changes made are superficial e.ye candy
Superficial?
Turning ALL-CAPS into mixed-case? YES.
Blue on blue -> White on blue? YES
Even if it's just some CSS flags, it makes the forum more readable.
Now, why is "candy" on the flagged list? (Yea, this post is going through moderation, isn't it?). It's things like this that keep us from having good things :p).
@Keybounce Yes, superficial. Literally. It changes the appearance, the surface of the forum. Yes, it makes it more readable for some people, but it doesn't address core issues of the community as it stands at the moment.
I wonder, @HPWULOLA Does the current moderation team have representatives in different timezones? Is it really just you and @HPWUblue at the moment? I do feel for you - you have a very big job to do. It is just getting too big for one or two people.
Yeah I’m pretty sure that’s the definition of superficial @Keybounce.
Agreed @Magpie31 if there are only two people on the HPWU team responsible for moderation then perhaps that is the problem with the forum. Two people can’t effectively moderate this forum. But that statement would assume that moderation was existing already which unfortunately I seriously doubt has been occurring based on the current standings of the forum as of this moment. I have been on many many forums and moderation is always lurking in the background and I have not one single time felt that there was any form of moderation occurring on this forum since I became active. Perhaps and hopefully I am incorrect in that assumption. But it just goes to prove EXACTLY what @OriginalCaruso is speaking about.
i honestly have to think logically what the HPWU team has on their plates moderation is the last item on their to do list and perhaps they never thought they would need moderation but the amount this forum has grown since I have been an active contributing member it is time to locate some veteran contributors here to be moderators. I have a couple of names I think are very fair and impartial that would be fantastic mods. IMO
I agree with you both @OriginalCaruso and @ClairabusGryff Kinda why I rarely post on here unless I have a specific question😂
@CBG92 yeah and that’s sad that you have to feel that way.
I've mentioned some serious issues with the forum. I was told that this was a reskin of an existing package, and as such there wasn't much that could be done to improve it.
So, getting small improvements to the CSS? Better than nothing. At least I don't have to make and maintain custom CSS for this site (no joke; I do that for a LOT of sites.)
Other than that, we had different ideas as to the meaning of "superficial".
So, on the back of all this discussion, I have a potential solution. We know that this forum has a class of poster called "prefect". I am led to believe they have certain privileges, such as their own subforum.
Now, I used to moderate for a Syfy channel TV show, but that used the BB forum as its base. On there, and on other forum software that I know, it is possible to have different levels of moderators. There were administrators, then senior moderators such as myself, and we were able to do the big things - hard deletes, issuing warnings, all that sort of stuff. We also had junior moderators who could do soft edits (so that senior moderators could still view originals) or move things to a moderation area for consideration. They could also temporarily close threads that were getting out of hand. The junior moderators also often had areas of expertise.
I would suggest that the prefects were given some level of junior moderator responsibility. Lucoire, for example, would be an incredible asset on the bug report area.
I know this is a really tough area for you - you need to be able to trust external volunteers to follow company protocol and legal requirements - not easy, but it would probably be an improvement. You would definitely have to carefully consider who was responsible for what, as well. Long time poster or prolific poster does not equate to good moderator. And those who may have technical expertise for some areas might not have the warmth or patience for general forum interaction and calming the waters.
Please don't read this thread as an attack, but rather as people who are committed to trying to improve the forum, so that people who lurk feel welcomed.
@Keybounce - Cambridge Dictionary definition of superficial includes “only on the surface of something”
Rewriting and maintaining CSS for many sites indicates personal preference for how content is displayed, but does not affect the underlying content itself
For those less technical, CSS stands for Cascading Style Sheets. CSS describes how HTML elements are to be displayed on screen, paper, or in other media. https://www.w3schools.com/css/css_intro.asp
Personally I would rather the developers focus on building out WU rather than making superficial eye c.andy changes here. I trust we can agree on this point
100 % agree @OriginalCaruso it's the content on here that is important!
That's what we all come for- the discussion about the game and the support to each other cos we feel that everyone here is 'our kinda people'.
We all love the game. And get very excited or very frustrated depending on circumstance and in days like these, I think the game has become more important than ever! To help keep our ssnity and to chat with others about the best way to approach tasks & events.
So as a community we should work through any problems that arise, we can report bugs, let the mods know urgently of anything that may have gone wrong with an update etc .. cos goodness knows we all pull our hair out at that!! - just me?....yep, well I do become very animated about this little game on my phone lol. But im sure I'm not alone.
Where this goes wrong is when some members will post on the forum in an aggressive manner, ranting about an issue, as though its been a personal attack upon them, and when others say- yeh- i got that problem too....so what i did was this..... and they explain a temporary way around it til its fixed. The others then come back with a reply that suggests you arent taking it seriously and you're playing down an important terrible mistake the developers have made.
The way I see it- and this is just totally my own opinion here so I kno we are all different- is that the developers don't deliberately mess up to annoy us do they? It may be they could have avoided it with more planning etc...but- it happened- so we deal with it best we can- work together to find ways round it- I used to fly on here in a second when something went wrong & say aaarrgghh @Ginnungagap help!!!! Or others lol, and they would tell me how to get round it. We would laugh, cry, shout etc- but not in an attacking and totally negative way.
That's why I'm on discord now and get my help from there & support, and cheer & lively conversation. As no-one will constantly be attacking the game and insisting its rubbish as we try to have a conversation!! They would be told to shush!!
It always boggles me that anyone would come on the forum to always post from a standpoint of trying to point out what is 'rubbish' about this game. As many of us vets used to ask 'if it's so awful why don't you stop playing!?' But then a barrage of horrid posts ensue & that's just not a place I want to be!!
This game brings such a much needed break from reality, I love it, I still **** at my phone when things depart!! Lol, I get angry and come out of a trace because I gave them a warning, then last chance & they took it a step too far!! So there!! And I scowl at the screen as if to say 'that's showed them!!' Lol.
If we can have the conversations on here like back in the day- but moderated properly- so things dont escalate where a member who was simply trying to defend themselves against a personal attack- who quoted that persons words back at them as being unacceptable- then gets a warning because the attacker reports them cos they answered back!!! -( just a scenario ive pulled out of the air for example!!) Lol- if these things didn't happen then I think the vets could all get back here!! And it would kaboom! With lively, honest discussion about all things.
Wow!!! Is that my longest essay or have I done longer? I think probs longer cos.. ya kno...its me!! 😂
@Keybounce I considered not passing comment, but I think this is one of those useful teaching moments - I am not sure making light of child abuse is really appropriate. It may not have been intended that way, but it certainly reads as that.
Was it really necessary to turn this announcement into a series of rants? Was it really necessary to accuse each other?
This thread has become heated. You've expressed your opinions, I suggest you agree to disagree now.
@Lucoire I am really sorry that you see this as rants and accusations, and that you see it as heated. I actually feel like this has been one of the more considered discussions of late. Some posters put across their concerns and feedback, @HPWULOLA said that she welcomed that feedback, and suggestions for improvements (using existing models) were made. Yes, there has been some back and forth about the use of different bits of language, such as "superficial" and "c.andy", but I wouldn't say heated.
Having said that, I have also been following this thread whilst having the benefit of context from chats happening on discord. I wonder if, without that context, it might look like an attack. And possibly a coordinated one.
I would agree that it took an unexpected turn in what was supposed to be a light announcement. But I think, in all honesty, @Lucoire, that people have been wanting to try and make positive suggestions for a while and felt they lacked the space in which to do it.
At the end of the day, what all the people posting here want is a friendly community feel, and I think the suggestion overwhelmingly is that in order to maintain the forum properly (including merging of duplicate threads, moving things into correct categories and so on), then the current team need more help. We are recognising that trying to moderate an international community with a couple of people is a huge and somewhat impossible undertaking.
And, you know, tempers are short, emotions are running high, and people are responding a little differently to usual at the moment, with all the additional stress in the world.
You are right that going round in circles won't help, but healthy discussion might. And aren't you always saying, @Lucoire, that we should try making suggestions for possible solutions?
@Magpie31 Suggestions are good. But suggesting the same things over and over again until it sounds like broken records aren't.
@AuroraKadavra you crack me up!
@Lucoire what is it that you think is being repeatedly said in an agreement to disagree situation? I think @Magpie31 summarized it pretty well. This is just a discussion on the possibility of some form of moderation so that the forum can grow. I don’t think anyone is beating a dead horse here. Just a discussion- but I do think it is important to hear your perspective on where it sounds off if you will.
@ClairabusGryff
I believe that change should only be implemented when the argument is good or the evidence supports it. It should never be implemented because the supporters of that stance suggested it at every opportunity.
And as for the topic in question: in order for an argument to escalate, both sides of said argument are required. It isn't the lack of moderation but the want for argument. And no matter how polite the words chosen, a disrespectful description of someone else remains disrespectful.
@HPWULOLA asked us for UNDERSTANDING. To me, that means
@Keybounce previously expressed that he had difficulties interacting with the forum due to the design and his "situation" being incompatible. This change seems to have amended some of those difficulties. Even if those changes may seem irrelevant in terms of other people's agenda, it was a change for the better - improving inclusion.
And what was the reaction to that? Well, read for yourself.
The request for a different style in "moderation" was expressed several times before. Here and here - just to name two instances. So to me it has reached the point of "broken record".
What I was suggesting is to try something else: de-escalate. Think outside of the box. Not "do the same thing and expect a different result".
Be kind. Be understanding. Be respectful.
We all have the same goal, we merely disagree on the path to reach said goal.
Thank you for your perspective @Lucoire. I do want to make one or two points and ask a few questions.
The two posts you used as examples of where moderation has been suggested actually illustrate my point. Look at how those discussions went off the rail and one of them had to be closed down due to personal attacks. That to me required moderation.
Perhaps your definition of moderation and mine are two different things. And maybe that is the heart of the issue. What does moderation look like to you?
And I whole heartedly applaud and agree that we do “all have the same goal, we merely disagree on the path to reach said goal.” So how do we reach said goal in your opinion?
@ClairabusGryff Overall, I prefer mediation over moderation.
To me, moderation includes all tools and technics to "reign in" things that are undesired (eg. behavior/topics that violates the TOS, inappropriate language, disrespectful phrasing). And as @HPWULOLA pointed out, that can very quickly feel like silencing and censoring - which in turn will make this space even more unwelcoming. Moderation isn't constructive, it's crushing.
Mediating instead means to find a constructive way to avoid and soothe conflicts via a neutral 3rd party. One of the most common synonyms is negotiating.
And there's another reason why I dislike "moderation": It's "heavy-handed" / "draconic". It's a sign of giving up trying to be constructive. It's a way of saying "I've tried and given up diplomacy and de-escalating. I'm asking you to create peace by force."
@Lucoire Then your idea of moderation is definitely different to mine!
The way I was always taught is that good moderation is mediation, keeping the community spirit and gentle steering. The tools / powers are used for orderly things (merging threads or sending them to the right place), or to hold something back for team consideration, or as a last resort.
A lot of good moderation can be done without "powers", but some of the "soft" powers can be useful for tidying, merging, closing a thread temporarily when it gets too heated.
In some ways, good moderating is like good teaching - you cultivate the positive relationships and engagement, maintain a presence in the room, and then most of what you have is minor admin or the odd kid who goes off the rails.
I always find it interesting to hear how people view these things. I suppose my first forum experiences were in very friendly communities.
And, @Lucoire, as I can almost predict the next post, I just want to say that I have been discussing having informal agreement with some posters about doing that positive community element - what positive moderation (or mediation, to use your term) can we do to help the current situation. That is just one of those off forum conversations, though.
So I have written and rewritten responses to a lot of these posts over the last two days, and nothing is really constructive enough for me to post. So I will try again and see if this one works out for the best.
Like a number of you, I have been on boards/ forums for a very long time (started with bbs boards over 30 years ago when dial-up was a thing) and I have seen a fair share of them shift and morph from positive to negative and sometimes, albeit rarely, recover. I have moderated rooms and mediated between forum members more times than I care to remember. I have left forums for less negativity than has been coming across the screen on this one. And reading from some of the posters who used to be very regular here and now only drop in when they must, I have seen how things can quickly turn sour.
So, settle in because I would like to drop my half a knut on this conversation. 😝
First: @HPWULOLA, I appreciate some of the superficial changes. I like the highlights of the OP and Admin. As a dyslexic, I'm not as thrilled by the right justification, but the world is full of compromises and a lot of right justification, so I'll get over it. The extended across the screen actually helps me digest the content of what is being said. But again, that's a superficial thing.
It also appears that you guys are getting a better handle on the Vanilla platform, which I appreciate. I would love to see that when I click on the thumbs up that it highlights, so I don't have to go through and wonder if this post or that one was me that agreed with what was said.
Thank you too for fixing the photos. It's nice to be able to digest an image in one take on the screen rather than scrolling to see the entire thing! As well as the titles of posts not always screaming at us! All greatly appreciated!
Now some of the uglier issues. I will concede @Lucoire that moderation can get very heavy handed. I will also concede that it appears we are beating a dead horse with requests for better moderation. Like @Magpie31, however, your version of moderation and mine differ.
If it is the case where there are only three people moderating this forum, that is a tough boat to be in. For a world-wide game, there just is too much going on. There is also the experience of handling moderation duties. Being hot-headed leads to power issues and heavy-handedness in my experience. Age and life experiences can also call for the differences in how someone moderates. But any forum that doesn't have it's boundaries will fail. It only takes a single troll to take down a forum and turn something positive into an angry mob. Does that mean we should ignore the things that frustrate us? No. The approach of constructive criticism with suggestions to improve helps all parties and if taken into consideration will improve the game. Name calling, finger pointing and just general temper tantrums should be avoided, or at least gently guided into the former realm.
Moderators have to recognize that not everyone will like them, that they are there to make decisions and those decisions are not always popular. They also need to set out the boundaries where they can be found easily by newbies and old members alike and when those boundaries are crossed, take action. Having forum members do the work of moderators is like having a bunch of primary school kids monitor themselves. Cliques can form, people allow their emotions to overrule their prudent actions and things go sideways quickly. We all want to be right, we all want to have the last word, and we aren't all old enough (some mentally, some physically) to react in the best of ways.
As a moderator, keeping a level head is good, Communicating with the offenders is even better so they understand which boundaries were crossed and what the next step is if they do it again. But allowing bullying tactics because you are afraid of confrontation as a mod is not okay. It means you need to let someone else step into your position. Don't like the word moderator? Think of it as being a parent or teacher . Forums that I have seen revive have multiple levels of moderation available. There is also the knowledge of who those Moderators are.
I will keep asking that the HPWU team provides at least to the prefects the moderators for the forum, or that that access is available to all would be even better. Provide us with a place we can look to see who has the expertise in which field so we can tag them when things get out of hand or when we need to bring them in as mediators.
And yes, @Lucoire I will continue to beat on the moderation drum to be heard, I will be that squeaky wheel because I LIKE this forum and want it to be a safe place that is enjoyable for people to drop in, ask questions, and maybe tell their stories. I will keep prodding to better this forum as well as the game because forums can help people grow and develop a different perspective. But all out just letting posters belittle and attack others needs moderation and it needs boundaries. It is fatiguing fighting for something all the time when everyone around you throws up their hands and walks away. It is heartbreaking to watch a social community form and then slowly dissolve because ethical lines were crossed and the people with power are too scared to use it. If it keeps on in this manner, I too will throw up my hands and let the forum devolve.
TL;DR
There are some lovely superficial changes that were made, but there's some deeper abscesses that need to be cleaned by possibly more professional hands.
Wow @Bormacska thank you - you said so much that I could never have articulated so thank you from the bottom of my heart!!!
@Bormacska 🌟 🌟🌟 🌟🌟
Thank you! Very well stated.
I have not had mental fortitude to take this thread on. I appreciate the time and passion of your response.
There has been a lot of tension in this forum lately and I have only been able to handle it in small doses.
I can only imagine what it is like for new players entering.
Most of the Prefects are no longer active.
And the other responses so far have convinced me that the hardliner-faction is now the vocal majority.
It seems, there's no point in having a conversation anymore.