New Feature: "Challenge Dungeons"

LucoireLucoire Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited January 2020 in Feature Requests #1 latest comment 04 November, 2020, 02:20 pm.
The Premise:

The game currently has 2 different types of "encounter":

  • interactive Fights against "foes" (Oddity-Encounters + Fortresses)
  • non-interactive Fights against "obstacles" (all non-oddity traces)

These are (for the most part) separated into two different sections of the gameplay.

The Inspiration:
  • Voldemort's Cave
  • "breaking into" Gringots-Dungeon
  • "infiltrating" the Ministry of Magic

All of these reminded me of classic "Dungeons and Dragons"-style Adventures.

And with that being said I'd like to introduce

Challenge Dungeons:

A new type of "campaign"-Adventure into "enemy territory", where you encounter all sorts of traps/obstacles/enemies... and are rewarded at the end.

Who's the target audience?

This style is targeted at

  • varied groups of ADVANCED Wizards
  • single Masterful Wizards (due to mechanics that you'll see in a bit)

As with D&D, it's far better to bring people who have your back, friends who can rescue you from a tight situation, allies whose strengths can compensate for your flaws.

How to start?

Given that this brings you to a special place, the best starting mechanic would be one that already incorporates "teleportation": Portkeys. So I'd introduce special "CHALLENGE-"Portmanteaus (max 1 per player, doesn't count towards the already existing Portmanteau/Portkey-Limit)

Once you've unlocked it via a golden or silver key and walked your distance, you can open it:

[Given] The Player has a "Challenge-Portmanteau"

[When] The Player opens the portmanteau

[and] invites up to 5 other Friends

[and] all invited Friends accepted the invitation

[and] the Player taps on the "Start Dungeon"-Button

[Then] the Player and all invited Friends are transported to a dungeon-encounter.

How to join?

For this, I devised 2 options:

  • Scanning a QR-Code (similarly to how "duels" in Pokemon GO work)
  • Inviting via the friends-List

I wouldn't build this in a way that requires the party to be nearby - to permit remote-participation.

What happens in the Dungeon?

The Dungeon will have stages, in which you're presented with a number of encounters. Each Stage is separated from the next one by a (group of) Obstacles. All encounters of a phase need to be defeated before advancing. Once all Phases are successfully completed, the dungeon ends successfully.

In general, there will be 3 different types of encounters:

  • Traps (Professors will be especially good at this)
  • Obstacles (Professors will be good at this)
  • Encounters with strong, single monsters (Magizoologists will be especially good at this) -> BOSS
  • Endurange-Encounters (draining health - healing spells/protective spells/healing potions will be required)
  • Encounters with many weak monsters (Aurors will be especially good at this) -> HORDE

To illustrate this, here's one example:

Gringotts starts with several weak encounters that were overcome through the use of the Imperius Curse (and taking the Goblin "Bogrod" prisoner).

That was followed by several traps and "obstacles" on their way to the "Lestrange-Vault".

The Raid endet in a Boss-Fight against the Security-Dragon.

The Voldemort-Cave started with traps,

continued with an Endurance-Encounter (Dumbledore drinking the poison, thereby deteriorating his health)

and endet with a horde-encounter

What happens if you fail?

If you fail against a TRAP, the "result" depends on the type of trap:

  • Damaging Traps: You'll lose a large part of your stamina (think in categories of "300-400"). If you're incapacitated, you need to be actively revived by allies - you won't be automaticly revived after a certain time.
  • Containing Traps: You'll be contained and need to be freed by your allies. If you're a professor, can also try to free yourself once every 30 seconds - starting with an attempt directly after failing.
  • Containing, Damaging Traps: You'll be contained and need to be freed by your allies. During your containment you'll continuously lose health (Think in categories of 8-10 stamina per second) You won't be able to free yourself.

If you fail against a BOSS-MONSTER encounter:

  • You'll be incapacitated and need to be revived. If you're a Magizoologist, you'll automaticly revived with full health after 30 seconds - unless your party is fully incapacitated.

If you fail against a endurance-encounter:

  • You're incapacitated and need to be revived. If you're a Magizoologist, you'll automaticly revived with full health after 30 seconds - unless your party is fully incapacitated.

If you fail against a HORDE-Encounter:

  • You'll be incapacitated and need to be revived. If you're a Auror you may continue using your focus-abilities as long as your party isn't fully incapacitated.

If your party is fully incapacitated (this is why single-players will have a much more difficult experience):

  • The Dungeon ends. The Challenge-Portmanteau will NOT be consumed. Your used Spell-Energy and Potions will not be returned. You'll not receive any rewards.

You can't "fail" against obstacles.

What happens if you succeed?

Your Challenge-Portmanteau is consumed and you get rewards.

That may be "magical items", (imagine a one-use time-turner that will revive you automaticly in case of incapacitation)

that may be "rare potions", (imagine "Felix Felicis" - that will guarantee a critical hit / masterful)

that may be red or green books.

Experience is distributed depending on activity - to prevent "carrying" people.

Other thoughts
  • No Time-Limit (or a very long one). The whole experience is aimed at a start to finish timeframe of 15-20 minutes but due to the difficulty it is advised to go into the experience cautiously - that's why I would not rush people by implementing a timer.
    • A "timer" may be useful for a "fleeing" phase for after an alarm has been set off
  • It will be HARD, even for people who have completed their Profession Lesson-Plan. Imagine "Dark Souls" drunk. For "Beginners" it should be impossible.
    • "Hard" doesn't just mean "lots of health". Hard may mean: You're not presented with the spell-pattern that you need to trace to overcome a trap.
    • "Hard" may mean: "Evasive" in the sense of "fidgeting" around - like Dragons, Pixies, Doxies
    • "Hard" may mean: You're not presented with the spell-pattern that you need to trace to overcome a trap.
  • It's designed as a way to trade large chunks of energy and potions and skill for "Account-Advancement" / "Profession-Advancement"
  • The Success-Rate against "Traps"/"Obstacles" should depend on the difficulty of the encounter - aided by the player-level. "Fleeing" in traces should count as "failed" for traps.
  • "Obstacles" are like "gates". They won't harm you but they prevent you from advancing to a later stage.



  • LucoireLucoire Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2020 #223 January, 2020, 01:22 pm.

    @Dogoutlaw @ZookiTabooki @Osprey1 @hpwulola @Acumen @AuroraKadavra

    May I have your feedback on this?

  • AcumenAcumen Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #323 January, 2020, 01:23 pm.

    Cool ideas, as always. 😊

  • Magpie31Magpie31 Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #423 January, 2020, 02:29 pm.

    @Lucoire You've presented this in such a detailed and comprehensive way! I was really excited by it, especially the idea of remote team playing.

    The only criticism I have is your suggested difficulty. I feel like the beyond Dark 5 type difficulty you are suggesting might not be feasible from a financial viewpoint - it would be quite an expensive and time consuming feature to implement, that is then only accessible to very few high level players.

    Having said that, maybe six months down the line, there will be more players of that level who would make it a viable option?

    Either way, I really love the idea, and feel like it would be something that could enhance the community aspect and keep things fresh.

  • LucoireLucoire Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2020 #523 January, 2020, 02:35 pm.

    @Magpie31 I understand that criticism and I thank you for mentioning it.

    Keep in mind though that the concept (at least from my perspective) aimed at the ENDGAME of the player experience, for those who have completed pretty much everything the "leveling experience" has to offer... and who still want more. That's why it requires not just a high profession-level but also a high account-level (to help with the difficulty of the "trap-encounters") - and why the suggested rewards are things that primarily those are going want that have everything else.

    That being said, I understand that "financial viability" issue of implementing it and I do not have a good response for it. I just hope that sooner or later there will be a demand for a more engaging endgame-experience due to the increasing number of high-level Wizards.

  • Magpie31Magpie31 Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #623 January, 2020, 03:04 pm.

    @Lucoire Like you, I do hope there will be enough demand for these experiences as time goes on. Many "casual but regular" players (I count myself as one of these) are now in the mid level 30s and progressing well on the skill tree, so the idea of having a large number within the next 6 - 8 months is not unreasonable. And we need the endgame / boss experiences to stop people losing interest.

    I think I was looking from the other perspective, that Niantic would want to attract newer players as a priority, given that this didn't take as well as Pokemon Go. The comparison might be unfair, though, given the wider appeal of Pokemon, particularly in my part of the world.

    Either way, a new, exciting endgame experience would be very, very welcome. And your expertise in the field shines through in the way you laid out your idea.

  • NursePoppyNursePoppy Posts: 82 ✭✭✭
    #723 January, 2020, 05:40 pm.

    What a great idea @Lucoire !

  • ClairabusGryffClairabusGryff Posts: 988 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #823 January, 2020, 07:29 pm.

    @Lucoire i love this idea and hope something along these lines is rolled out.

    Not to hi-Jack the thread but why do you think (or anyone else for that matter) that HPWU hasn’t taken off like Pokemon did? I remember the buzz of when Poke came out and everyone I knew was playing it but I had no interest in it but it was like a movement. Will HPWU take off like Poke?

  • LucoireLucoire Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #923 January, 2020, 07:33 pm.


    The IP isn't as popular, Pokemon is hyped AF.

    That's one of the reasons why I'm thinking of (and designing/suggesting) Features to set the game apart in other ways than just the "IP".

  • ClairabusGryffClairabusGryff Posts: 988 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #1023 January, 2020, 07:34 pm.

    @Lucoire silly human question...IP does that stand for initial program?

  • LucoireLucoire Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #1123 January, 2020, 07:37 pm.

    @ClairabusGryff "IP" means "Intellectual Property", in this case the copyrighted term and universe of Harry Potter.

  • BormacskaBormacska Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #1223 January, 2020, 07:55 pm.

    So my first reading of this was very early this morning and I must admit that I really like the DnD or WOW aspect of the idea. I honestly haven't touched DnD in 30+ years and never played WOW (but have many friends who let it take over their lives) and your proposal comes across as really well thought out, as do the majority of your posts. You didn't ask for my feedback, but it triggered my problem solving brain, so here goes.

    My guess is it would take at least 6-8 months just to properly implement something like this into the game, considering creating the monsters, the locations/ backgrounds, the multiple connections into the challenge. I'm guessing a pretty decent amount of players would be at the right levels to be able to tackle something like this.

    I have questions:

    1) Would there be a need to hit a certain level for the challenge portkey to show up on your map? Or is this such a random generated thing that even a Lvl 5 ,or someone who just starts fortress battles, could pick up the challenge portkey.

    2) Does the challenge wizard (the one who opens the portkey) have the ability to populate with any wizard or only those above a certain level?

    3) How does communication work for this?

    4) Does this work only for the full version or on the Niantic Kids version as well (I don't know the difference between the two)? Or due to certain "scary" factors does one need to be of a certain age and not just level within the game to participate?

    5) I read this as multiple stages, would there be a way to "pause" the campaign or if someone, due to "network errors" drops out can they rejoin?

    6) If they do allow us some crossover in professions at some point, does that mean, like in fortresses you choose your main profession through the whole challenge or can you shift professions to meet the individual stages? Or Could that be an option for someone who's attempting to solo a challenge?

    I feel like some of the biggest hurdles to get to this point would be in-game communication, network connections (or the drop-rate issues), storyline, and timing. I recognize that a lot of people would be mostly local, but I could also see a group of 5 or 6 from the the many forums trying to get together.

    I like the idea of having some end-game events that help bring closure to a game. I feel like there is a lot of floundering by the team to bring storyline into the game and yes, some of that may simply be communication to the players. I would love that the player base were big enough for Niantic to generate a team that they could specifically put towards some sort of grand finale, but would I want them to create that team by pulling away from their people debugging, or those trying to get Adventure sync up and running? Honestly, I'm not sure. But I do love the forward thinking and the ideas you present @Lucoire !!

  • ClairabusGryffClairabusGryff Posts: 988 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #1323 January, 2020, 07:55 pm.

    Ahh so I was way off. But please someone tell me how Pokemon is better IP then freaking Harry Potter?? I am offended as a Potter-Head!! 🤣🤣🤣

  • MtPolluxMtPollux Posts: 856 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #1423 January, 2020, 08:11 pm.

    @ClairabusGryff not necessarily "better", but definitely much more popular.

    @Lucoire that's a really well thought out suggestion. I'd love to see something like this in the game. However, I fear that the amount of coding that would be required to implement it and the amount of other projects that the team is working on means that something of this magnitude would be a loooooong way down the road.

  • LucoireLucoire Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2020 #1523 January, 2020, 08:14 pm.

    @ClairabusGryff I didn't say "better", I said "more popular".

    @Bormacska This is merely a concept at this point so I admitedly have no definitive or "well thought-through" answer. But I will try to put my thoughts into words.

    1. Since it is designed as Endgame content, I would make sure that the "starting" option (in this case "finding the Challenge Portmanteau") isn't available to people who wouldn't be able to do it. If I had to implement it I would say that these Portmanteaus only show up for people who have reached an Account-Level of at least 35 and a Profession-Level of at least 14
    2. I'm uncertain whether it should be a "hard gate" or a "soft gate". I've mentioned before that it is supposed to be really difficult and therefore bringing someone who due to level constraints won't be able to contribute, wouldn't be in the interest of the "starting" Wizard. But since the reward distribution might be exploitable I'd probably say that it should be a strict gate - meaning you can only invite those that - by themselves - fulfill the requirements mentioned in 1.
    3. I'd say similarly to how it works for Fortresses. I'm a big advocate for "use your own mind, don't let others tell you what to do" so I'd not provide any "ingame" mechanic to communicate.
    4. I don't know what the legal constraints are but if I had to guess, I'd say that it isn't available to them. But as I said, I have no Idea.
    5. "Pausing" is why I've been thinking about a Time-Limit. Because what I wouldn't want people to be able to do is "join, do some encounters, cause a disconnect, farm energy/potions, rejoin, continue, repeat". That's why IF there is a rejoin-option, it needs to be implemented in such a way that the player can't exploit it. (Also see the Sidenote at the end)
    6. I'm against switching Professions within a Challenge. I don't have any "objective" reasons against it, it just "feels off" from a story perspective.

    Sidenote for the "Network" stuff... to do Challenges you don't need to be anyplace specific. You could be in your own Wifi - a place of STABLE INTERNET - and do this. That's why I wouldn't do things toooo differently from how Fortresses currently are done.

  • AcumenAcumen Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #1623 January, 2020, 08:52 pm.

    I feel the same way, @ClairabusGryff, but it's true. Harry Potter doesn't have nearly the fan base as Pokemon. I've never played the games or watched the series (or any of the movies), but I don't know anyone under 30 who hasn't. Even among my age group, I know more people who are (or were) into Pokemon than Harry Potter. I don't understand the appeal, but that's just me.

    I'd love to see this game continue to grow in popularity purely for the sake of having a more active local player community. Ideas proposed by @Lucoire and other forum members would certainly help. Having the ability to do fortress challenges with players from around the world is another suggestion I've seen posted, and I believe that would definitely help to draw in new players and keep existing players engaged. I think part of the issue is the novelty of AR gaming wore off immediately. Most players turn off any AR features and what you're left with is a game that quickly begins to feel a bit tedious.

  • ClairabusGryffClairabusGryff Posts: 988 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #1723 January, 2020, 09:03 pm.

    @Acumen see I thought I had read somewhere that of all the fictional concepts on the market that HP had the strongest fan base and is the most money making concept even over the Star Wars saga which is older so I just am in awe that Poke has a larger fan base and is more “popular” than HP. I too love all the ideas that are pouring in on this forum and other forums but I think the ideas are coming in too quickly for the development team to implement them. But on top of that it is my understanding that the game isn’t making the money that the bean counters forecasted that it would make so that puts the game at a stalemate. And someone pointed out that it looks like support is being shipped overseas to cut costs so these are not good signs for our game to go much higher than it currently is. But I desperately hope I am wrong. Remember the sunglasses Niantic is working on to assist with AR? I would absolutely purchase them. But it may just be for the Poke crowd if things don’t pick up with the game soon I am afraid. And I must point out that your adjective “tedious” is accurate and the game is VERY unfortunately starting to feel that way. But I won’t stop and part of the reason is the fabulous people I have met on this forum and the love of HP itself.

  • LucoireLucoire Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2020 #1824 January, 2020, 11:40 am.

    @Bormacska I've given your questions more thought and here is what I've come up with:

    To avoid exploitation, there are hard requirements of aLVL (account-level) 35 or higher and pLVL (profession-level) of 14

    Scenario "Open Challenge Portkey":

    [Given] The player has a challenge portkey

    [and] The Player has aLVL 35 or higher

    [and] The pLVL of the currently active profession is 14 or higher

    [When] The Player taps on the "open" button of the Challenge Portkey

    [Then] The Dungeon-Lobby-Screen is opened in "Owner"-View

    [and] The Dungeon $id is created

    [and] The Player is marked as "Owner" of Dungeon $id

    (if any of the "given" pre-requisites is not met, "then" an error-message is shown)

    Scenario "Invitation"

    [Given] The player is in the Dungeon-Lobby

    [and] The current size of the Group is smaller than 6

    [and] The sum of "invited players" and "current group size" is smaller than 6

    [Then] A list of Friends is shown that are at aLVL 35 or higher and have at least 1 profession with at least pLVL 14 and are not already "invited" or "Participant" or "Owner" of a Dungeon.

    [Given] The player is in the Dungeon-Lobby

    [and] The current size of the Group is smaller than 6

    [and] The sum of "invited players" and "current group size" is smaller than 6

    [When] The player taps on the "invite"-button of one of the friends

    [and] The friend doesn't already have an invitation to a Dungeon

    [Then] A Dungeon Invitation is sent to the Friend

    [and] And the number of Invited Friends is increased by 1 for the Lobby

    [and] The Player is marked as "invited" for Dungeon $id

    [Given] The player has an active Invite for a Challenge

    [and] the currently active profession has a pLVL of less than 14

    [When] The Player taps on "Accept the Dungeon Invitation"

    [Then] A Error-Message is shown, making the Player aware of the pLVL-Requirement

    [Given] The player has an active Invite for a Challenge

    [and] the currently active profession has a pLVL of 14 or higher

    [When] The Player taps on "Accept the Dungeon Invitation"

    [Then] The Dungeon-Lobby-Screen is opened in "Guest"-View

    [and] The Account is marked as "Participant" for Dungeon $id

    [and] The view of the "Owner" and the other "Participants" is updated

    Scenario "Disconnect"

    [Given] The Account is marked as "Participant" for a Dungeon $id

    [and] The Dungeon with the $id is marked as "in Progress"

    [and] The Player is not in the Dungeon-Progress-Screen

    [Then] A popup is shown to allow for "RECONNECT" and "LEAVE"

    [and] all other actions are prohibited until a decision is made

    [Given] The Account is marked as "Participant" for a Dungeon $id

    [and] The Dungeon with the $id is marked as "in Progress"

    [and] The Player is not in the Dungeon-Progress-Screen

    [When] The Player taps on "RECONNECT"

    [Then] The Dungeon-Progress-Screen is opened

    [and] The access to Dungeon-Progress relevant actions is given

    [Given] The Account is marked as "Participant" for a Dungeon $id

    [and] The Dungeon with the $id is marked as "in Progress"

    [and] The Player is not in the Dungeon-Progress-Screen

    [When] The Player taps on "LEAVE"

    [Then] The popup disappears

    [and] The access to "other actions" is returned

    [and] The account is no longer marked as "Participant" for a Dungeon $id

    [and] The other Participants of Dungeon $id are informed

    [Given] The Account is marked as "Participant" for a Dungeon $id

    [and] The Dungeon with the $id is marked as "ended" or "canceled"

    [and] The Player is not in the Dungeon-Summary-Screen

    [Then] The popup disappears

    [and] The account is no longer marked as "Participant" for a Dungeon $id

    The same applies for Dungeons that are marked as "Setting up" (Lobby-Screen)

    Scenario "Profession Change"

    [Given] The Account is marked as "Participant"

    [and] The account has more than 1 Profession of pLVL 14 (or higher)

    [and] The Player is in the Lobby-Screen

    [Then] A button is shown for each profession with pLVL of at least 14

  • Osprey1Osprey1 Posts: 610 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #1924 January, 2020, 01:43 pm.

    While I appreciate the amount of work put into this and, as a standalone concept it as merit, I don't believe this fits into HPWU.

    I think it could be more simply implemented simply via a multistage wizarding challenge in the existing towers. Additionally parties could be constructed via invitation like PoGo facilitating local only parties.

    Significantly reducing the importance of specific classes in favor of heavily potioned players, as is the rule today.

    Including a time limit.

    According to typical Wizarding World IP rules (although WB might have a fit) you could probably build this as a companion game as long as you didn't try to make money from it. The results wouldn't have an impact on HPWU but since most of what you gain in HPWU is portrait stickers I'm not certain that just having a legends board wouldn't be satisfactory.

  • LucoireLucoire Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2020 #2024 January, 2020, 03:03 pm.

    @Osprey1 To some extend I agree.

    Niantic games are built around the principle of "minimal time investment". That means that the game may have a potential to spend hours and days in game but in order to progress almost no time investment is needed. You could:

    • Start the App near an Inn, Accio some food, close the App.
    • Start the App, dispell a confoundable, close the App.
    • Start the App near a Greenhouse, Plant some Seeds, close the App.

    ... and still have made some progress with an investment of mere SECONDS.

    That principle is true to all 3 Niantic games - with 2 exceptions: PoGO raids & HPWU Fortress-Challenges. These Features require at minimum 2-3 minutes.

    So in that regard I agree, a feature like a immersive Story-Dungeon that requires a time-investment of AT LEAST 15 minutes is a break of continuity and therefore doesn't really fit into HPWU.

    ... but is that principle a good thing, something that should be sheepishly followed? Wouldn't it be better to create immersion and reward invested engagement?

    Similar Question for the "heavily potioned players", is it actually a good thing to remove the individuality and "niche" of the 3 professions - especially in todays day and age where expression of personality and individuality has become more and more important? Admitedly balancing individuality to make all variations viable is a nightmare... but it can be done.

    And as for the question of whether "outsourcing" it into another companion game... I share your obvervation that it is a common theme but I absolutely disagree with that notion. And the reason is somewhat simple: revenue. A loyal customer/fanbase - a customer of THIS app, not any other companion developed by the same company - is more willing to invest money since (s)he has already invested time (and hopefully had a good time and positive experience)

  • ClairabusGryffClairabusGryff Posts: 988 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #2124 January, 2020, 05:34 pm.

    Wow @Lucoire you have done an amazing job thinking this whole thing through very well and I certainly appreciate the time and thought you have put into explaining this amazing concept very well. Not sure where you work but I would suggest that Niantic hire you immediately!!!

  • BormacskaBormacska Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #2224 January, 2020, 08:01 pm.

    I fear that they couldn't afford him!

  • AcumenAcumen Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #2324 January, 2020, 09:54 pm.

    If he applied to work at the same organization I work for I'd tell the hiring manager, "Give him whatever he asks for."

  • ClairabusGryffClairabusGryff Posts: 988 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #2424 January, 2020, 10:18 pm.

    We all have great ideas in general and I think that Nianctic needs to hire us as contractors for game formatting and ideas! Imagine what we could implement and bring to the table and how much fun we would have. But let’s be honest we would all lose our jobs because we would be playing the game all the time! 🤣🤣🤣

    Obviously in the real world @Lucoire is some kind of engineer/software dev along those lines. Am I right??And I am a recruiter. I find all the best and brightest and hire them.

  • DogoutlawDogoutlaw Posts: 1,928 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #2524 January, 2020, 11:41 pm.

    I do love the idea! Fortressing is one of my favorite parts of the game. Catching foundables over and over gets old, but the fortress has a little variability to it. At least in my mind, it does. And being able to play with others around the world would be so much fun! Whether or not it's implemented... who knows, but it's a cool idea to think about. I really like the idea of it being HARD. Currently, my group is completing D5 with plenty of time to spare. It just isn't very hard anymore. The game can't stay like this or they'll lose the long term players. I also sort of think of your idea similar to book 1, when they go down the trap door. Multiple rooms with multiple tasks/obstacles. Personally I'd like to do something like that in real life, but I've always been a fan of obstacle courses...

  • LucoireLucoire Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #2625 January, 2020, 12:32 am.

    @Dogoutlaw You're right, the search for the Philosopher's Stone is another example for a "Scenario", there's Fluffy, there's the enchanted Chess-Game, there was the Devil's Snare, there were the flying Keys...

  • kiheikidkiheikid Posts: 2,168 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #2725 January, 2020, 02:34 am.

  • ClairabusGryffClairabusGryff Posts: 988 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #2825 January, 2020, 05:52 pm.

    About 10 or so years ago I started playing the original Plants vs. Zombies game and it was a single player based game. About 5 years or so later the games makers rolled out PvZ2 and it is a glowbally played game. It was my first tablet/phone game I ever fell in love with and played daily. I quickly maxed out the game and they didn’t release any new levels so I stopped playing the original game. But I still love PvZ2 because every day it is a different game and they have weekly challenges that start on Tuesday and end of Monday and you get awesome rewards for playing the weekly game. So I am hoping that HPWU evolves into something similar.

  • BormacskaBormacska Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #2929 January, 2020, 12:19 am.

    @Lucoire Can I ask, and you don't have to answer, why you don't believe there should be in-app communication in the game? I'm merely curious.


  • LucoireLucoire Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #3029 January, 2020, 06:28 am.

    I believe that it would be a distraction.

    I believe, truly, that all humans have the potential to reflect on their surroundings, to analyse what's going on, and to find enlightenment - and truth.

    BUT I also believe that that enlightenment needs to come from the inside. Humans are intelligent, capable of intensely complex problem-solving strategies but these abilities need to be properly developed.

    In University, I studied computer science, later specializing in "Artificial Intelligence". I graduated with a PhD-Thesis about the differences and similarities between artificial learning and "natural" learning. And one of the "discoveries" of my thesis is that overall, there are 3 base strategies in knowledge-aquisition:

    • autonomous learning
    • guided learning
    • forced learning

    Further, learning itself "usually" is comprised of different "phases":

    1. Imitation - doing as someone else is doing (this is basicly what "machine learning" is extremely good at)
    2. Variation - slightly changing the imitated behavior to see slight changes in result
    3. Reflection - getting an understanding of how the changes relate to each other and how the result is based on the input
    4. Experimentation - going "off the rails" and thinking "out of the box", trying things you've never done before
    5. Abstraction - actively searching for patterns in that field

    What's interesting is that not all learning-strategies actually go through all phases - or are even intended to. Guided Learning often intentionally abandons "experimentation" and "abstraction" based on the belief that other people have already done everything there is to do in that regard - which quite often is a misconception. And forced learning goes even further and strictly forbids every phase but Imitation.

    In order to really, really grasp the nature of your surroundings, you need to go through all the phases - and in order to do that, you need to free yourself from the intellectual restrictions places upon you by the beliefs of others. And the best way to do that is to train your mind to be critical, analytical, sceptical.

    In HPWU, that (at least according to my belief and research) means trying to understand - BY YOURSELF - how everything works. Following the Tutorial, varying what the tutorial taught you, reflecting on the results, coming up with outlandish new strategies... and then abstracting and cross-referencing these strategies with your knowledge from other areas.

    Following the Guide of others is a limiting factor. It restricts you from reflecting and experimenting, thereby blocking your path to a true understanding. Furthermore it distracts, it adds to the sensory overload and may even cause "confusion" - as what the guide tells you may conflict with what you've learned by yourself.

    Sidenote: I also believe that the game should be measured and judged by how well it presents information to you - by whether it tells you everything you need to know to create a suitable strategy. If it fails to do so, it should improve in that regard - instead of trying to mitigate the consequence by adding "chat".

    Problems should always be adressed at the source, never by mitigating the symtoms.

  • kiheikidkiheikid Posts: 2,168 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #3129 January, 2020, 09:41 am.

    what a thoughts-provoking manifesto

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