Will AdventureSync reduce casting and driving?
Osprey1
Posts: 592 ✭✭✭✭✭
The Day of the Dragon was hot here. Probably not hot for people who live in different climates, but for around here it was uncomfortable.
Therefore I was not surprised as I was walking around my local park that I saw the same cars driving through the parking lot slowly during the event, windows up and air conditioner running. But I really was sad to see an older Suburban with only the driver and the passenger idling through the parking lot with the driver playing on at least two phones.
- Driving and playing is dangerous. There were numerous studies done around Pokemon Go to prove this and Niantic tells you this when the game starts.
- Driving and playing is harmful for the environment. Niantic has teamed up with Leave No Trace and having cars driving around or idling with the AC on is not good.
- Driving and playing breaks the social aspects of the game.
If I recall correctly, early in Ingress you couldn't play if you were moving at a speed above a walk. This was later changed supposedly to permit playing as a passenger. I for one would simply prefer if the "I'm a passenger" dialog went away and was replaced with a "you must be walking to play this game" message.
I am curious if AdventureSync will be leveraged to at least discourage low speed driving to unlock portmanteaus.
What are your thoughts? Do you drive and play?
Comments
I agree with you that playing behind the wheel is a serious problem, but I think that reducing the speed cap to walking speeds is too extreme a solution. There are people who want to get distance by jogging or biking, there are people who want to play while on public transportation, and there are people with mobility issues. Because one subset of the playerbase misbehaves, is it fair to punish others by reducing their ability to play?
Yes, in my opinion playing while biking is dangerous for you and those around you. For both biking and jogging I'm assuming that adventuresync will permit credit for distance without allowing the other elements. I wouldn't even have a problem with an auto dining option while traveling above walking speed if the game screen was blocked.
There is no compelling argument that people should be allowed to play as passengers in cars or on public transportation as both limit the social, health and discovery traits of the Niantic mission statement.
Niantic has built a product that is disadvantageous for those with mobility issues. We would not ask Schwinn to make every bicycle work for those with mobility issues at the cost of safety for all riders and bystanders.
in the beginning in ingress there was no speedlock.
this is one reason we need greenhouses to persist with their random shuffle, where they exist on known drivable routes for resources in the other games they deter driving for resources here. traffic will keep you from being able to successfully interact with the greenhouse.
if inns went to a similar delay to get energy everyone would quit tomorrow. but they are used to greenhouses now and there isnt much you can do to circumvent it.
as far as adventure sync goes - you cant make it so you cannot drive it without making it so you cannot walk it. plenty of places everywhere you can just idle along and not impede traffic - that puts you at walk speed in the vehicle. it does not put you where you need to be for point of interest locations in most instances, but it does drive off portkeys.
i walk at a rate of 6mph on average, and cast on the go one handed now, floating between great and masterful. if they do what you propose then i would lose adventure sync walking around playing pokemon. that would frustrate me a lot. i have not been playing pokemon because potter has no sync, if i lost it at my regular walk speed anyway then whats the point of adding adventure sync in the first place.
@Digitalis Hmm, I'm not suggesting that we could stop all driving and playing. I think a significant reduction would be beneficial.
I also am basing my suggestion off the knowledge that Google Fit does a pretty good job of differentiating between low speed driving and walking through the use of sensors to detect steps.
So I'm not certain how to interpret your comment because it seems it's based completely upon speed. Is that correct?
I am fortunate enough to be a passenger on most of my outings (unless pulling an all nighter for werewolves). I have some mobility issues so my km walked is mostly the car stuck in traffic crawling along or biking.
I would never play whilst driving. That would be foolish and very dangerous.
That said our laws on phones while driving (including stopped at traffic lights) are quite harsh. Enough for most not to do it.
Of course you get idiots everywhere though.
The laws have been on tv news recently. It is an offence to go through Maccas drive through and pay by tapping your phone as you are in control of a vehicle.
I would love the equivalent of a go+ or gotcha though. I have purchased 4 go+ and 3 gotchas. I'm somewhat of a heavy user!
I don't like the idea of relying too heavily on Google Fit/Adventure Sync because I don't like Google to have access to that level of information/data collection (I have Web & App Activity, Location History and Ads Personalization all turned off - basically I've gone through my settings and scrubbed as many permissions as possible, I know they can still collect quite a bit of information but I prefer to give them access to as little as possible). Playing while driving is dangerous so of course it should be restricted but playing as a passenger or having the game on and in the passenger seat while I make the short drive to the store to grab a bit of Portmanteau distance I think isn't asking too much.
I dont get out much so playing as a passenger is done a ton for me. I even fuss at hubby to slow down if I see a special foundable. Now for my KM...i have my phone mounted up and will turn it on when I am creeping in slow traffic or in our gated neighborhood only. I have recently started having heart issues and already had back problems so a 10k is not happening. A 2km is hard. I go to our local mall which is a sponsor to walk and get my inns and fortresses lately. I can walk or just sit and play. I dont like limiting the driving part. I have been walking and it thinks I am driving...I am just trying to keep up with my long legged hubby who walks fast. Lol
@NotATest that is an interesting take. I know that Google et al have significant amounts of data on me but I also know what it would take to truly be free of tracking (hint: start by not carrying a cell phone.)
While the principle of activity tracking through sensor based monitoring is sound, implementing it directly in HPWU instead of relying on a third party is not realistic from an economic point of view. I would argue that Niantic and Google already have most of the information available to Google Fit anyway.
playing as a passenger or having the game on and in the passenger seat while I make the short drive to the store to grab a bit of Portmanteau distance I think isn't asking too much.
Doesn't this violate the very spirit and indeed the specific rules of the game that you unlock portmanteaus by walking?
Would you rather keep this behavior knowing it puts lives at risk or limit this behavior and save lives. (Freedom vs safety)
@MCB00TY Please know that I understand when I started this discussion I was proposing ripping the game away from people in your situation. I am aware I'm balancing that against the damage being done via unsafe driving practices and to the environment.
I would fully support some type of alteration to the game for wizards who wished to register as mobility challenged that would permit them to bypass the portmanteau mechanism, but I'm unsure of what that would look like although there was a nightbus suggestion that could be a start.
My question here though goes towards what would be possible since, in theory Niantic can discriminate between driving and walking by using Google Fit. Would they be willing to do so to achieve the aforementioned benefits?
I think a mobile game is the wrong foundation for building a set of arguments to address whether personal freedom should come before the safety of the group. I doubt the producers of such games are terribly concerned with these matters, with the only exception being any issues that could result in liability. I could see updates to prevent the app from running at all while driving being implemented for that reason alone. However, if the warning messages alone are enough to transfer all liability to the player, then probably not.
@Acumen I can think of many counters to your position. Why would Niantic have the mission statement they do, why partner with Leave No Trace, why match donations at Donors Choose and why support numerous other charities including Lumos?
Niantic didn't think they'd need to take responsibility for trespassing and just had to pay out several million dollars.
However @NotATest answered the question. It doesn't matter if Niantic could use Fit to differentiate driving from walking, they would not require the use of Fit, at least not at this time.
Osprey1 I think “most” players agree driving and playing is dangerous. However noble and politically correct you are to consider the global warming effects of idling a car your suggestion to limit access to game play while in a moving vehicle is a bit selfish and would seriously discriminate further against disabled players. Those of us with disabilities are already struggling with the non ADA friendly aspects of Niantic games. We play anyway. I can vouch for how difficult the km requirements and distance between fortresses, inns and green houses makes game play. This is extremely frustrating.
Right now I play in rideshares on the way to doctor and physical therapy appointments plus anytime it’s not rude to play while being driven. Even with that I can’t go/play anywhere/tine that most able bodied people can. I don’t have someone slow drive for km.
Niantic has done zero to address these issues and seem perfectly content to continue discriminating against the less able bodied.
On the flip side I’ve been trying to think of ways to offset the imbalance. I haven’t been able to come up with any realistic answer.
Theres’s no way a game company can request proof of disability without breaking the law, it’s called HIPPA. Seriously, would you trust Niantic or any game company with your private health records? You can be sure someone would abuse any play alteration that would allow decreased movement or location access. There are too many bad actors just like the idling car types.
For now, even paying $$$ can’t offset the obstacles some of us are facing to play. Please don’t ask for the game to be further limited.
Niantic games are designed for pedestrian use, point of interest locations are decided based on pedestrian access. opr is crowdsourced poi approval - if niantic is involved directly at any point the pedestrian check is made. no pedestrian access means that poi is removed.
The games are designed to make you walk. They try to accomodate people with disabilities, but even for able bodied people opportunity is a thing, and it is not distributed equally. for every disabled person in a city with point of interest locations in abundance, is a rural player who has to travel three towns over for a single point of interest location.
These games can not by definition be inclusive of everyone. they are based on physical locations in the real world, and those locations not only do not exist everywhere - they are not evenly distributed where they do... and they never will be.
Opportunity is a thing and it is not equal between any two places anywhere on the map. Access is not often equal even between able bodied people playing in the same place. adding disabilities to the equation really changes very little - no two players have the same access/opportunity options anyway as it is.
There are point of interest locations for all three games i have legitimate access to in various cities that the vast majority of the playerbase does not, in turn there are many players who have legitimate access to locations i will never be able to get to.
Niantic does not want people to drive and play, it says so everytime you open the app.
Any method that can for sure screen out drivers will by definition screen out pedestrians - you can speedlock over a certain speed and thats fine, but what is being discussed here is how to screen low speed vehicles with players and you cannot.
I walk 6 mph when walking alone on average. i jog a lot, in pokemon i hit speedlock jogging or running. average pedestrian speed is 3-5mph. when you account for inaccuracy of location data if you go any much below 9 mph you will screen out pedestrians - and then you have no game left.
step counters? be wary of relying on such a thing. they are easily, and usually very wrong. if a step counter alone was what was used you could 'walk' a hundred miles an evening sitting on your couch ... and i will refrain from describing hows here but we routinely joke about step counters at work. had one guy 'walk' that hundred miles a shift while working stationary simply because of the task he was doing. just to be clear - said person was sitting in a chair all night long which did not move from where it was bolted to the floor.
you can try to be too clever and too restrictive and just destroy any playability in the game altogether.
bottom line is, you simply cannot prevent people from playing from a vehicle. If it was niantics responsibility to prevent people from playing the game in a vehicle, then it would also be facebooks responsibility to prevent people from logging in from a moving vehicle. or verizons responsibility to prevent people from texting in a moving vehicle, or samsungs responsibility to prevent anyone from using their device in a moving vehicle.
people play as passengers, from busses...kansas city has a free rail line that runs through downtown that is awesome to play from. i usually play from skateboard but have been stuck in this tiny farming town for months and the streets are made from mostly tar which bubbles and melts in the heat ... i have not been able to play by skateboard since potter dropped (which makes me sad).
There are many methods people can utilize to play to overcome mobility issues as passengers which do not break any laws - and if you look closely at the message presented at login it only pertains to operating a vehicle, not being in one.
There are laws on the books that pertain to people using a phone while operating a moving vehicle - if people choose to break those laws whether it be playing potter, snapchatting something, or getting their facebook fix - those laws and enforcement from someone with arrest powers are where the 'preventing people from driving slowly and playing' will come from. Asking niantic to handle it means you cant play as a pedestrian either and we are back to no game, and people are still texting while driving until they are caught or wreck anyway.
The only thing that will come from trying to prevent 100% of people playing from any kind of vehicle or riding implement is to eliminate pedestrian access as well. below a certain speed threshold there is nothing anyone can do about it.
see a distracted driver? call a police officer. there are hotlines in most states in the usa for explicitly that purpose. beyond that...there is no game left to play.
@Osprey1 I would fully support some type of alteration to the game for wizards who wished to register as mobility challenged that would permit them to bypass the portmanteau mechanism,
This will never be a thing. If niantic has any lawyers in their employ (they do) then this will never come to pass.
i walk ten miles a day which has nothing to do with niantic gaming. most days i clear it in just over two hours.
Under the ADA i am considered a qualified person based on my medical needs - anyone the ADA applies to would be equally eligable for this registration in game or niantic would cease to exist if they ever found their way out of court from the descrimination lawsuits.
I would be eligable, yet obviously dont need this thing.
you would be right back to square one except having an entire segment of the playerbase protected while doing the very thing you wanted to prevent, and the cost of administering this game would mean it could not financially exist. it costs a lot to be in compliance with the various laws regarding protected medical information - i only have dated experience with that from when i worked in credentialling/insurance a decade ago, but compliance with ADA and various other state and federal regulatory issues has been my primary job function for 7 years.
You do not want what you are asking for - this game would have to become subscription only, and there are not enough players to make the subscription financially viable for the end users.
Niantic does not discriminate against disabled people, but the games are not designed for them either. they (we) are welcome to try to participate - in fact the fan festival was ADA compliant - but nothing within the ADA compels the company to design the game to cater to the needs of disabled persons. At the end of the day this optional thing every player is participating in is not any kind of required anything for life, and so the lengths the game administration goes to for people with disabilities is nothing more then elective compassion, and a kindness.
@Osprey1 I don't want to take this to become an argument over whether this game is designed to be played whilst walking when you said "Doesn't this violate the very spirit and indeed the specific rules of the game that you unlock portmanteaus by walking?"
I remember many arguments in Pogo about this. Where in the rules is it specified that we must walk? I can walk. 400 metres is what I am able to manage without needing to use an ice pack. I have a walker and a knee brace which allows me to walk a little further.
My distance travelled is comprised of driving (being a passenger) and cycling. I don't play while I ride but I do have the game open to catch the distance.
For that matter, how is it considered dangerous if I play as a passenger? I play to take my mind off the traffic as I get nervous in the car. I suffer much less anxiety when I don't know what's happening outside our car.
I guess I'll continue to play against the spirit of the game as that is all I am able to do.
I personally see nothing wrong with this and don't see any of my play style being against the rules so we must agree to disagree on this matter. :)
A lot of really good points made here. Great topic, awesome thread!
@Osprey1 I totally respect your viewpoint. As a guy who worked in a safety sensitive environment most of my career (subway track & structure construction, maintenance and repair), and having lost a couple of buddies to this environment along the way I have a well developed respect for safety, barriers and controls. I am completely against being distracted while operating ANY kind of vehicle.
To drive the point home, I once had a deer jump across the road in front of me at dusk a few years back. This stupid animal was so freakin' close to my bumper I could see the individual hairs on his hide as he jumped across at lightning speed. I literally only had enough time (I mean milliseconds) to tap my brakes with ninja-like reflexes before he was gone. If I had blinked I would never have known it happened. I couldn't believe I didn't hit him. Any kind of distraction whatsoever at that time would surely have resulted in a different outcome. That's all it takes; a split second for a child to jump out in front of you, and you're done!
I would ordinarily have no problem if they lowered the speed cap to prevent drive-by gaming while driving except I like being able to play from a vehicle as a passenger. Whether it's mobility or weather or whatever, playing from a vehicle as a passenger has many advantages that are difficult to ignore. I also believe in 'Drivers for Responsible Gaming', my term and I think the current speed cap is well balanced, better than it was for PokeGo.
My wife knows how I feel about safety. Yet she doesn't have my tempered experience, and so doesn't have the broader perspective I've developed about safety over the years. This used to concern me a lot because she wasn't taking it seriously enough and I couldn't prevent her from driving and gaming, no matter how I drove the point home, every single day. No matter how well I articulate my point, free will is a real thing, and people are gonna do what they want. All we can do is encourage people to be responsible if not for their own safety, then for the safety of others.
I have since developed a route for my wife that will take her from one cluster of Inns to another. She drives distraction free from one cluster to another and pulls over to a complete stop and parked before she picks up her phone. This is actually working well for her as she also plays Pokemon Go and can capitalize on her stops. Transit is the one thing I like to promote over driving (other than walking of course). Lowering our carbon footprint is becoming mainstream (though hardly fast enough) and I find it really is the best option for riding and gaming.
@Digitalis made a lot of really good points that lead me to believe the current speed cap is good as it is. It may not be perfect but I think Niantic has clearly put some thought into this and they have found the right balance without limiting our options.
I have two children with mobility issues who love this game. Unless I have magical powers to push two wheel chairs the only way they can both play is by me driving them around.
I couldn’t care less about limiting speed to unlock portmanteaus, I put their devices in my bag with HPWU open every morning and evening when I walked the dog.
Speed limiting the ability to visit inns or catch foundables would render the game unplayable for my kids. It is not the game developers role to punish everyone because of a select few idiots. As long as they have implemented reasonable safe guards that’s enough. I believe the current limitations are fine as is.
It would help if the game recorded speeds properly. Once more today I received that notification. No, I wasn't even a passenger, not biking either, just walking.
I think enough rules. People are playing and enjoying the game as they see fit with whatever physical or geographical hurdles they need to overcome. It's not broken, let's not try to impose further rules to fix it.
I will admit, I am one of those that drive to unlock my portkeys. In my defense I take the sleep off of my phone, throw my phone in my passenger seat and crawl around my apartment complex for a couple laps. When the heat index is over 100° it's hard to find the energy to do the trek on foot. I really wish we could have adventure sync. As it stands, I walk about 5mi a day while I'm at work and a little less on my days off. So would I drive less, if at all, if I had adventure sync? Yes. Chances are I'd only 'drive' if I was legitimately the passenger. So when will we be allowed adventure sync? I don't know.
I totally use the game when I bike and when I'm on a car. BUT! Here's how I do it.
While biking: I just keep the game open but put it in my bag, that way I'm just paying attention to biking alone. I also bike super slow and stop from time to time to check on the game. I use the bike mostly so I can hit the 4 different greenhouses around me, and to help with portkeys. So going extremely slow is nice.
On the car: ONLY as a passenger. Never ever otherwise. (well I also don't have a drivers licence so not like I could drive and play haha). But yeah definitely agree that with driving it's an absolute no no.
When the game expects one to be out after dark to collect werewolves than it is for my safety that I am in a car playing as a passenger with a friend. There are times the safety of a car is necessary for this game. Not playing and driving but in a vehicle is safer than out.
Also when walking, often the game locks up a player and then your witch is on her broom zooming to catch up to where you are a pop goes the driving question warning.
I do not agree, as soon as you stop people from driving, you effectively **** off many handicapped people. One of my wife and my best friends is paralyzed from the waist down, we met her playing pogo, because she was able to drive and do it. Out pogo group has another person who is missing a leg, again he was able to play pogo effectively and competitively because he can drive, I have a friend I've know for about 35 years, he has had multiple sweat glands removed because of infections, he can not be out of the air conditioning, I just got him started playing wizards because he can be in his car. It's actually very narrow minded to say ( everyone has to walk to play wizards ) when there are many people that can not be out in the heat or are restricted in there ability to walk, or can't walk at all. And what about the many elderly that can't take the heat or can't walk very far at all. Should all of these people just give up and die. Please stop trying to give Niantic a reason to take Joy from the people that need it most !!
I regularly drive my mother around to play this game. She can not walk much at all as even standing in the kitchen to make dinner is a real chore.
So in the spirit of the safety issue, this is how we play.
We both load our phones. Any time I am driving, mom watches both screens. Then, when something good comes up she tells me to pull over. I park the car, set the e-brake and then allow myself to play.
This allows us to spend quality time together without our heat sensitivities and her disability keeping us from playing.
Stop trying to fix what isn't broken. Niantic has covered their own rear. Otherwise, live and let live.
KeyFlame60
"You must be walking to play this game" would be super ableist, and I wouldn't be able to play anymore.
I am having a problem with the game saying I'm going to fast when I am walking. I have it on when I'm in to store shopping and it will say in going to fast.
Honestly, I feel it's not Niantic's place to enforce the law. You should know that you can't drive and play. It's your choice whether you follow the law or not. And if you get caught, you deal with the consequences of said choice.
This post smacks of abilism. When I had multiple hip surgeries last year, I could only play the game while sitting in my car.
Not everyone can. I'm not one for playing the game while driving, but I also won't leave others out because of a physical disability.
Not everyone has the luxury of living somewhere where the temperatures are safe to be out walking.
Not everyone has the luxury of living in a location where the neighborhood itself is safe to be out walking.
And not everyone has the luxury or ability to be out walking, period.
One of the best things about Niantic games is their ability to bring together people who might not otherwise ever meet or speak. A big part of this community is working together to ensure those who aren’t able, or as able, can still play. We take turns being the designated driver, load up our vehicles with other players and drive to raids together, participate in events and community days together. We HELP each other.
What you’re suggesting would not only eliminate the ability to play for a lot of people, but it would **** a large part of the social and community aspects of the game as well.
Anyone irresponsible enough to try to play while driving is taking that risk and posing that risk of their own accord and will eventually be left to bear the responsibility for their actions should something go wrong. They’re also the same people who text while driving and talk while driving. Niantic isn’t responsible for babysitting these people.
No, idling cars are not good for the environment, but the majority of vehicles belching pollution into our atmosphere that have no relation to Niantic games far outweigh the negligible number who do.
Adventure sync would go a long way toward reducing some of this “driving” and playing. Niantic should have included it from the start if they had learned anything from PoGo, but they didn’t. Give them time. It took a while for PoGo to hit a sweet spot and balance, HPWU will need time as well.