The Free Rider Problem

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  • PunkyfinsPunkyfins Posts: 202 ✭✭✭
    edited April 28 #12228 April, 2020, 11:50 am.

    @WerewolfChaser yeah. Same as @Magpie31. I think you're preaching to the choir a little bit on this forum 😊. Most of us are informed. But, yeah, it can be frustrating when players approach a group battle as if they were solo-ing.


    Did you manage to win and get your rewards?

  • WerewolfChaserWerewolfChaser Posts: 648 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 28 #12328 April, 2020, 05:41 pm.

    @Punkyfins Yes we were successful thanks.


    @Uli14 I had a weird foe count yesterday after my teammates left during the battle. I reported it in bugs but have had no response.



    I see 3 foe not 1.

  • WerewolfChaserWerewolfChaser Posts: 648 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 28 #12428 April, 2020, 05:47 pm.

    Hmmm weird, screenshots won't post.


    @kiheikid It's interesting that you don't buff for the Towers. If I see you in a battle I shouldn't bother transferring focus?


    I skip that for Ruins because of my level being able to carry beginner players if they join. I can't one sh0t foe in Towers so I try to be mindful of lower level players in the group since we have no idea who we're playing with.

    Post edited by HPWUblue on
  • CraeftCraeft Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #12528 April, 2020, 06:02 pm.

    Question:

    Are they typically magizoologists? I ask because magis are basically the healers and if people come in from other games as a healer player, the typical action is to focus on teammates bars of happy so they don't turn into bars of despair. While this game has a different mechanic, it could be that those who typically play support roles in other games are using the same strategy they're used to. I've been guilty in fortresses prior to release of the knight bus of doing similar out of habitual heal strategy.

  • kiheikidkiheikid Posts: 2,168 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #12628 April, 2020, 07:08 pm.

    @WerewolfChaser - hi, i look to cast proficiency maybe sometimes for tower5 which is roughly equivalent to forest1 in strength but usually not otherwise for any tower or ruins chambers

  • DogoutlawDogoutlaw Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #12728 April, 2020, 08:08 pm.

    @WerewolfChaser it's such a weird glitch, that foe count thing. You think you're almost done, and then... lol

  • kiheikidkiheikid Posts: 2,168 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #12829 April, 2020, 06:49 pm.

    @Imaginatio - you can achieve your 65* bonus rank for brilliant circus calamitous registry page by spending enough of those brilliant runestones (and getting the fragments) in any chamber, not necessarily just dark5 (though it is guaranteed in dark5)


    i had a ton (and still do) of brilliant circus runestones and used them in ruins1 just to grrrrind for runestone giftboxes, and managed just now to max out for the 65* bonus rank

  • kiheikidkiheikid Posts: 2,168 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #12929 April, 2020, 06:50 pm.
  • ImaginatioImaginatio Posts: 777 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 29 #13029 April, 2020, 07:09 pm.

    @kiheikid Yep, though the only problem is I’ve done the calculations and I can only afford to lose very few runestones in order to get the rank to 65*. Once I’ve finished my lesson plan, I’ll probably do dark chambers (most likely dark V) until I get to that rank and then use the remaining runestones in the lower chambers. If I had enough to lose half and still get to that rank, I wouldn’t even consider using the Brilliant Runestones in the dark chambers.

  • kiheikidkiheikid Posts: 2,168 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #13129 April, 2020, 08:24 pm.

    @Imaginatio - best luck to ya 🍀

  • ImaginatioImaginatio Posts: 777 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #13229 April, 2020, 08:29 pm.

    @kiheikid thanks 😊

  • kiheikidkiheikid Posts: 2,168 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 13 #13313 May, 2020, 10:09 am.

    if i see in the fortress lobby that i am only 1 of 2 players waiting for the clock counting down, i am bailing out (with no less than 45 seconds left) and looking for a larger group to join. the risk is too great, right now, for any 2-player challenge to become burdensome to me either due to an inexperienced teammate, a free rider teammate, or a teammate getting kicked out due to technical difficulties, leaving me with twice the foes to fight and costing me perhaps twice the amount of resources (spell energy and potions) used for just the same foundable fragment that i could have hunted in a solo battle.


    of course, that still leaves the situation where one or more players in the fortress lobby bail out at literally the last second, leaving just two players in the fortress battle when the only reason i clicked “join” was in reliance that i would be part of a larger, balanced team instead of a duo.

  • Dragons1111Dragons1111 Posts: 142 ✭✭
    edited June 29 #13529 June, 2020, 04:26 am.

    So today just a few mins back I was in dark 1. 2 Aurors. I battled 5-6 wizards on my own. I thought okay this person is facing some issue. But voila, he or she casts confusion hex on my last foe. So pissed! Such a free loader. Most of my spell energy is lost. Thanks to the magizoologist and professor who gave me the right hexes - otherwise would have lost that 5 rune. Btw all hexes were cast on them that free loader too.

  • LycindelleLycindelle Posts: 417 ✭✭✭
    #13629 June, 2020, 06:52 am.

    @MrSciGuy I noticed that, too. Worst experience: We were in Dark V with an auror, two magis and two profs. All both magis were doing was healing or reviving. Not battling even one foe. The other three did there best but in the end we lost - there were too many spiders and erklings we couldn't handle.

    No fun at all ☹️

  • MrSciGuyMrSciGuy Posts: 976 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #13729 June, 2020, 05:00 pm.

    Exactly my point @Lycindelle! Just because you’re hexing/healing/whatever doesn’t mean you are participating. You have to actually engage foes to contribute to the team effort.


    The number of foes is based on the number of players on the team. So while these people are just sitting there using their strategic spells, there are perhaps four extra foes on the board simply because they’re on our team. Everyone has to do their part.


    Something needs to be implemented to enforce this.

  • RabbeinuTamRabbeinuTam Posts: 165 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2 #13802 July, 2020, 12:55 pm.

    Just had my worst experience in a fortress chamber that we actually defeated.

    It was Dark V and the team was balanced PPMMA. As a professor, my normal practice is to throw a shield up on the Aurors, fight a foe, shield the Magis, and finally if i haven't been shielded yet, myself. So i immediately shield the Auror, who i then realize was already in combat with an elite foe, so i knew it was going to be a rough ride. I ended up shielding 4/5 players including myself, and putting up the proficiency charm with 3 minutes to go (when i finally got to 7 focus)! I felt like i did most of the work and we finished with 1 minute to play. Absolutely no teamwork from the others.

    Please don't enter the higher chambers, especially Dark if you are not going to A) contribute or B) help your teammates

  • diwadiwatadiwadiwata Posts: 26 ✭✭
    edited July 2 #13902 July, 2020, 07:17 pm.

    The task of defeating your highest chamber really pushes freeloading. Even if it's just in the bonus stage, players will want that. There's only so many potions I am willing to spend to compensate for one freeloader. Yes, just lost a D5 because one player was hexing only until less than 2 minutes on timer. Only 2 foes with probably 2 hits left and we lost. I sent one focus to the player to hint that I am noticing their inactivity. They hexed a foe and still didn't fight.

  • KreaturezKreaturez Posts: 64 ✭✭
    #14118 July, 2020, 12:08 pm.

    I vote for having base rewards that are close to none, maybe a few cxp. The more activity, the more rewards, regardless of completion. Failing just means not maxed rewards.


    Or if activity reaches a certain threshold, then rewards are awarded.


    In order of rewards:

    Inactive/disconnected = freeloaders who cast the occasional pass focus < player too low for the challenge (does low damage, takes high damage) < player that goes in with no strategy < player that casts appropriate spells and kills proficient foes < voted player of the game < actually completing the challenge.


    Downside is players who have slow connection/disconnect still won't get much rewards.

    But the problem is that we can't differentiate the difference.

  • KreaturezKreaturez Posts: 64 ✭✭
    #14218 July, 2020, 12:17 pm.

    Is there a way to put those freeloaders with freeloaders? Give player ranking or something. Like 5 down votes always go to the same bus as 5 down votes. And the 5 up votes get to be in the same bus as 5 up votes.


    If you want to get up votes you have to play with groups enough times and get up votes. Maybe play ~5 games to get back with the cool kids. It's like not worth the effort to play 5 proper games just to slack in one.

  • MtPolluxMtPollux Posts: 720 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #14318 July, 2020, 12:42 pm.

    @Kreaturez I like your suggestion that the default is to receive minimal rewards, and that we can build up to a normal sized reward by being active and helping to beat the chamber. The order of rewards that you mention sounds good, but would be very difficult to implement properly. There has been a lot of discussion about the challenges of programming "good" behavior in a fortress because there are many nuanced situations where the right thing to do might change based on the circumstances of the moment.


    Would it be enough to scale the rewards with activity? Start as you said, with each player guaranteed a minimal reward, and then scale the reward up based on how many actions the player performs. Each level would require a certain number of "points" to get the maximum reward. Get a point for casting a strategic spell, get a point for each attack cast on a foe. It's not a perfect system because it doesn't prioritize "good" activity over "bad" activity, but it does address the freeloader issue that has been vexing people since the introduction of the Knight Bus.


    Downside is players who have slow connection/disconnect still won't get much rewards.

    I don't think this is a problem. A player that disconnects (either due to technical issues or intentionally) shouldn't get rewarded like the players who actually did the work in the chamber.

  • Magpie31Magpie31 Posts: 1,230 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #14418 July, 2020, 01:36 pm.

    With the new update, it has become easier to spot freeloaders. You can see their appraisal score. Now, you may get someone who is slightly low but passable in D5 (I would suggest 800k+, I think. I am a 900k auror and can easily handle D5 in team play) but I did see someone this morning who was 35k or something silly in there. That person is either a freeloader or way out of their depth. Gave me chance to back out.

  • KreaturezKreaturez Posts: 64 ✭✭
    edited July 18 #14518 July, 2020, 02:19 pm.

    I can be a freeloader, with maxed professions. It's a false sense of security but yes I do tend to fort those with an acceptable level.


    I suggest assigning points. 1 point of damage = 1 point. So you get more rewards if you're fighting a proficient foe, and the use of potions. Free casts gives 1 point. Hexing, few points each. Det hex a bit more. And bravery/proficiency even more. You'll probably get a scale, and award based on brackets. It's the balance that is the difficult bit.


    Freeloaders who only cast bat bogey and revive will probably get minimal points. So assign a threshold of probably 500 to get bare minimum. Then next bracket is about 2500, then 5000. Scale with chamber level. Maybe get a negative if you take damage as well, to balance the Aurors dps.


    Then if you get potg, bonus stuff. Or extra/confirmed fragment

    And rewards can be mundane, like energy, or ingredients or scrolls, or higher chance of fragments.

    Post edited by Kreaturez on
  • LucoireLucoire Posts: 1,230 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #14618 July, 2020, 05:51 pm.

    @Kreaturez

    Your suggestion encourages egoism, "What do I need to do to maximize my own Reward?"


    When the actual goal should have been cooperation and collaboration: "What do I need to do to make this run as successful and efficient for everyone?"

  • Magpie31Magpie31 Posts: 1,230 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #14718 July, 2020, 05:57 pm.

    I take your point about freeloading @Kreaturez, but would argue that a maxed or high ranking wizard is a lot less likely to be a freeloader, and any challenge where they don't participate is more likely to be bug related.


    I do, however, agree with @Lucoire. I can't envisage a point scoring system on this that encourages good team play. You already see people gunning for elites on their off professions just to get their own achievement. Imagine how much worse it would be if magizoologists got more points for hitting their foes than for reviving a player, or if higher starred foes got more points. It would just be a mess.

  • KreaturezKreaturez Posts: 64 ✭✭
    #14818 July, 2020, 10:53 pm.

    You don't need to reveal that score. The score does nothing except determine what rewards. And doesn't matter if you score 10000 or 5000, once you pass the 5000, you get the max rewards. It's the below 500 that is who I want to target.

    And if the magi doesn't prioritize reviving, then he gets down voted and still won't get bonus rewards. And may even not meet the timer.

    Like I said, the balance is something that can be worked on.

  • KodokmagKodokmag Posts: 716 ✭✭✭✭
    #14919 July, 2020, 01:36 am.

    i'm a magi, we not always know some one had KO'ed while fighting a foe. and with static and low damage out put even to spider or dodge'ey erkling (especially without confussion hex) . very often the KO counter have pass half way after killed a foe. and jump in and out battle repeatedly is not very productive counting loading time for the fight.

    well its different if have 2 magis.

    on 3 magis i usually even use healing instead of revive.

  • Magpie31Magpie31 Posts: 1,230 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #15019 July, 2020, 07:46 am.

    @Kreaturez I know what you mean, but players will figure out the mechanics. The big Discord in particularly, we are like dogs with a bone. Should have seen us calculating the appraisal score differences on professors. Once it is known and publicised, people will play to maximise their own score.

  • KreaturezKreaturez Posts: 64 ✭✭
    #15119 July, 2020, 03:48 pm.

    By maximizing, do you mean reaching that 500 then slack the rest of the way? Or reaching 5000 then slacking? Is it worth it to reach max possible even though it doesn't do anything beyond 5000?


    Who knows, maybe after calculation, the best way is actually for Aurors to confuse erklings and dark wizard, professors casting defence and proficiency, and magis to revive team mates.

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