I am lucky enough to live in a country where my freedom of speech is a right. I recognize that many do not and I do not take that freedom lightly. I truly believe that good dialogue between all of us (Mods, Admins, and all forum members) is the best way to keep things open and civil.
@Lucoire Perhaps there's a common reason why most of the prefects aren't as active anymore. A reason pertinent to the current discussion perhaps... ?
I'm not too bothered if prefects aren't the ones given moderation "power." Personally, I think it would be better if it were HPWU paid employees. But I want HUMANS to actually moderate the forum. To be active and present. They say they want a positive environment, and yet they allow toxicity to seep in unchecked. Hearing and encouraging all opinions and perspectives is great; allowing name calling, gas-lighting, and bullying is not.
Exactly @Owlx imagine being a new player and coming here for a question about werewolf tufts and finding this level of dissension? So thank you for pointing that out.
@Lucoire i thought this was a conversation - when and where did it stop being a discussion because I am not seeing that.
No, there are several monologues. To me, that's one of the fundamental issues here: to many people talking and too few people listening. Too little empathy, too much want to convince.
Ask yourself: would you want to have a conversation with someone who only repeats the same thing over and over again - with slight variations in how it is phrased? Or would you rather have a conversation with someone who is willing to listen to you and to UNDERSTAND your perspective?
@Lucoire too few people listening? Everyone here is listening to, and responding to, each other.
People are, as you say, repeating the same thing over and over again because this forum needs change, and so far it’s only been superficial. So what, we just accept that and stop pulling for how we feel it SHOULD be? Just because some people are tired of hearing it? We’re tired of all the same issues cropping up, hence the repeated messages.
As @ClairabusGryff said, we want these issues resolved so that new members coming in can find what they’re looking for, get the help that they seek, all without seeing the animosity and thinking what the...?
@Lucoire Im not going to continue to go back and forth with you on this.
I think we’re all trying to be understanding to others. We’re all trying to help, offer suggestions, provide tips, etc. But that is difficult to maintain when the environment becomes hostile.
I would then ask why, out of everything said in this entire thread, you singled that out to ask about.
So you're avoiding the conversation. Quod erat demonstrantum.
I was asking because to me it looks like you're bullying the HPWU-Staff. You're doing the very thing that you claim to be fighting against. You've become that what you set out to destroy.
And the way @Keybounce was treated here wasn't respectfully and empathic either.
So this is usually where @Acumen would jump in with something witty and apropos, but alas, I am not he and nowhere near his master of wit. instead I present you with Banksy's version of the UK Parliament, which as someone else pointed out to me, this is beginning to look a lot like that. Maybe you won't be as amused as I am, but hey, I'm trying to diffuse the situation here. Work with me okay?
Personally, I like the superficial changes. I think the argument/discussion focuses on a misunderstanding that developers and designers can work in tandem and both groups can focus on more than one thing at a time. In other words, while there are some mechanics of the forums that need to be fixed, it doesn't mean we can't have "pretty" also.
As for the moderation aspect, I think the majority of you know my position. I fully respect and salute the current mods but those of you who remember me probably remember my parting post. That touches on a need for a community based moderation system. By community based, I mean helping each other support the community and not return toxicity with toxicity. There are some who stay juuuuuust inside the line of the TOS but you can feel the unnecessary snark in response to an otherwise innocent post. These people know exactly what they're doing and how they're technically not breaking the rules, while still portraying an aggressive or otherwise divisive stance, merely for the sole purpose of causing discontent.
I stated my vast experience as a moderator for various forums and because of that, I have a tendency to see the clues of how a forum is going to go pretty quickly. That's not me patting myself on the back; it's me saying as I've said before, a resolution needs to be made before a resolution needs to be made. In other words, if it's allowed to get beyond a point of enforcement, there is no return to order (See Also: World of Warcraft, circa 2008 on).
Personally, I would be more present and more involved if given a reason to do so. I still read the forums but I very rarely involve myself with them actively because of the vitriol so often used as subtext. Overall, I still love the community and think it's an incredible group of people with a shared interest. But many seem to forget the "shared" part and focus on the "differences". I'm guilty myself at times.
I've made friends specifically because of this community... friends planning to meet up (for real) and go Pottering together... not just local, but global. That's pretty awesome, imo.
Being a moderator isn't easy. It requires objectivity AND compassion. It requires an understanding that not everyone is the same, not everyone interprets things the same, not everyone is as cool as Ravenclaws!
Look at the type of game we're playing in the middle of what's going on in the world. That makes us family. Family is going to disagree and that's fine. But we need to remember the difference between discussion and argument, between understanding (not agreeing, per se) and obstinance.
But I'm old enough to ground you if needed. 😜
I have a bottle full of Flint water. Don't make me use it.
You're an excellent mediator. We all should aim to be more like that, grounding, de-escalating. Offering perspective and compromise.
Work with me okay?
And provide you with an opportunity to further derail what started as an Announcement of changes to the Forum-UI?
But okay, let's re-iterate and try to find a common-ground: a compromise.
Moderation
Since the Forum has rules and certain legal requirements, it is necessary to have someone to enforce (and explain) those rules:
Inappropriate language needs to either be redacted or defused. What's considered "inappropriate language", that's a different topic.
Double-Posts and new threads to already existing topics need to be merged. Heated arguments need to be ended, closing the thread is one way to do it.
There needs to be a structure in which topic goes where. That structure needs to be provided and enforced.
Insults need to be removed
Repeated offence needs to be reprimanded. If nothing changes after that, the Moderators need to ensure a way to keep the space safe. Removing the offender is one way of doing that.
Trolling/gaslighting is somewhat more difficult to deal with since it is subjective. The moderators need to be aware of the thin line between censoring/silencing opinion and allowing "chaos".
Mediating
Overall however, Moderating should be a "It's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it"-method. It is our responsibility to ensure that the number of cases where it is needed is as low as possible. Therefore we should all aim to be constructive.
Not judge people for what they suggest / require.
Try to understand first and foremost. Changing what you don't like or disagree with comes much later.
Provide a differen perspective, offer a compromise.
Be helpful. Write a guide, provide clearance.
Don't break the rules to make others aware that the rules are being broken. Lead by example.
Keep in mind that not everyone is native in english, sometimes it is better to explain more and longer than to create / reinforce linguistic confusion.
Don't overwhelm people. Don't write a wall of text when a single line can explain just as much. Don't write a similar fifth response when there have already been four previous ones that have already said the same thing.
Be lighthearted. Be hopeful. Fear/concern are self-serving and self-enforcing emotions; creating and empowering positivity can only come from hope and positivity.
Don't hold on to your idea/agenda as if it was your life. Finding a compromise or a common ground is the foundation of a community.
Don't derail, try to keep the narrative on the topic and/or move the conversation on that topic to a different space.
Try to diffuse debates, don't add to the heat.
Don't feed the troll.
Conclusion
Moderation is needed but only as a last step. It should be done by someone who knows all the rules / requirements and as such, a Niantic Employee or sufficiently briefed contractor would be best.
Most of what happens in the forum should be mediating. There are many "veterans" around here that are (as @Craeft said) "old enough" to provide a certain calm and that have the experience required to guide new players into the community.
back to topic
What I like the most about the CSS-Changes is that it's now finally possible to format text as headlines, lists, etc. in the MOBILE VIEW. That's sooooooo helpful (since I imagine that most people first enter the forum from their phones).
Thank you for reminding everyone what effective moderation looks like
My goal was not to remind but to clarify. Since we earlier discovered our different understanding in what "moderation" means, I wanted to ensure that we're talking about the same goal using the same words. You know, avoiding linguistic misunderstandings.
However, unless implemented, the outline provided is an ideal and not a reality
Which part are you dissatisfied with? Where are the requirements unfulfilled? (preferably with a link to an example)
@Lucoire - You have engaged in enough contentious threads (and acted as protagonist) to know the answer to your own question
I have clearly articulated my views within this thread - and in response to your request to not keep repeating the same thing, I kindly request you re-read from the top down, you will find several other forum members expressing the same view, we cannot all be wrong
I believe that moderation should be objective. It should follow clear rules and have no need for "interpretation". Therefore moderation for the most part should be automatable.
The most important Lesson I learned from training AI is that learning and improving is done by pointing out what's correct and what isn't. More specifically:
Review what was correctly flagged
Point out what was incorrectly flagged
Review what was correctly not flagged
Point out what was incorrectly not flagged
Inappropriate language / Insults
Keeping that in mind, I think overall the automated "inappropriate language filter" is in a good spot but it needs to be refined. There are some things that are incorrectly flagged and some that are incorrectly not flagged. I think we should start a Forum-Post pointing out "incorrectly flagged" words to allow for that filter to be refined.
One of those "incorrectly not flagged" examples is "inappropriate phrases in a foreign language." But since this is an english forum (that's explicitly marked as english), all non-english posts and phrases (be it german, french, spanish, etc) should automaticly be flagged and (at least temporarily) reprimanded. Also, Posts with redacted words by Users with an active "warning" should be completely rejected - instead of "sent to moderation".
Now after reading this ask yourself: would this unfairly and disproportionally punish dyslectics?
Derailing / Multiple Posts
To solve this, I'd allow ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️people who have no active warnings (or are otherwise blocked from this) to do the following:
Mark post as "duplicate". It requires a link to the "other" post. If the posts are word-by-word duplicates, the Forum then removes the "marked" one.
Mark posts as "off-topic". Several can be marked at the same time. It requires chosing a Forum-Section. The Forum then extracts the marked posts and moves them to a "fresh" place according to the chosen Forum-Section.
Mark Threads as "related". Only a Thread can be marked as such, not individual posts. It requires a Link to another Post. The Forum then merges the 2 threads.
Add "special" Tags to Threads. Those (like "Bug", "Feature", "Forum", "Story", "Event", etc) correlate to Forum-Sections. As such only 1 of those can be added. After doing so, the Forum will move the thread there.
Mark Posts or Threads as "Inappropriate Off-Topic". It makes the post and/or thread temporarily invisible/inaccessible and sends it into "review by human moderator". The human moderator then can either "allow" it, which makes the post/thread visible again in its original place or "not allow" it, which will a) issue a warning to the author of said post/thread and b) remove the thread/post permanently.
Trolling
... is subjective. As such I believe - even after having observed it time and time again - it needs to be handled using the objective rules. It is currently possible to mark posts as "Report: Trolling" and "Report: Harassing" but I've never done that so I don't have any experience in how it works or could be improved.
@Lucoire, given that you have spoken at length about "soft" approaches to forum governance, I am surprised to see such a hard line here.
Firstly, your post supposes that any tangent or evolution of a topic is inherently bad, and is punitive. If the aim is to build a supportive community, then sending all community-building posts to moderation is rather counter-productive, and will deter conversation. Not everyone has the purely analytical approach or focus that you do.
Secondly, I understand that this forum is marked English, but I can't find navigation into another language. Also, non-English posts are not against the rules, according to the community guidelines. Not every poster is able to communicate well in English, and so surely your principle of empathy should come into play?
Thirdly, just because someone is a prolific poster with five stars, doesn't make them someone with the empathy, patience, objectivity or maturity to have the responsibilities that you suggested, even if free of warnings. It should not be an automatic right. All it does is show how often they post, not the quality.
I am sorry, @Lucoire, but for all your love of specifics and analysis, I feel this falls short of the calls to empathy, understanding and a gentle touch.
Firstly, your post supposes that any tangent or evolution of a topic is inherently bad, and is punitive. If the aim is to build a supportive community, then sending all community-building posts to moderation is rather counter-productive, and will deter conversation.
Yes and no. There is "off-topic" that's okay, and there's off-topic that's not okay. @HPWULOLA expressed some while ago that the topic of this forum should always be Harry Potter, the HP-Universe and the HPWU-Game. Things that don't fit into any other category but still "related" to one of the 3 mentioned topics should be filed into "Community Forum Feedback".
Secondly, I understand that this forum is marked English, but I can't find navigation into another language.
Top-Left corner. Only available languages are "English and Japanese".
Thirdly, just because someone is a prolific poster with five stars, doesn't make them someone with the empathy, patience, objectivity or maturity to have the responsibilities that you suggested, even if free of warnings. It should not be an automatic right. All it does is show how often they post, not the quality.
Admited. I don't have a good solution for that.
I am sorry, @Lucoire, but for all your love of specifics and analysis, I feel this falls short of the calls to empathy, understanding and a gentle touch.
You're right, I failed. My goal was to provide a creative solution but I seem to have misunderstood the request. That being said, I did ask for specifics...
Thank you for the screenshot. That option isn't available in my phone browser. Perhaps the current solution is the best one at present - forum members with the language skills support as best they can.
As for the attempt, I think it just showed how difficult a task managing this community is, and that getting the balance right between maintenance, control and nurture is very delicate. Failure is not always a bad thing.
@Lucoire I got dragged here through a mention. I will keep this simple. People's request for moderation is due to huge amounts of mediation attempts failing. That is also why I'm pretty much never on here anymore as well. What you have suggested has long since been tried and failed.
Additionally pacifists never win battles. The only option is to leave.
Comments
@Lucoire - I am sorry to read your response
We are not a hardline faction, actually, far from it
We are a group of concerned individuals who care enough to try and stop the rot before it is too late
At least we are making an effort. The alternative is to do nothing and Edmund Burke has wisdom on that outcome
@Lucoire I am sorry you see it that way.
I am lucky enough to live in a country where my freedom of speech is a right. I recognize that many do not and I do not take that freedom lightly. I truly believe that good dialogue between all of us (Mods, Admins, and all forum members) is the best way to keep things open and civil.
@Bormacska Thank you for that!
@Lucoire Perhaps there's a common reason why most of the prefects aren't as active anymore. A reason pertinent to the current discussion perhaps... ?
I'm not too bothered if prefects aren't the ones given moderation "power." Personally, I think it would be better if it were HPWU paid employees. But I want HUMANS to actually moderate the forum. To be active and present. They say they want a positive environment, and yet they allow toxicity to seep in unchecked. Hearing and encouraging all opinions and perspectives is great; allowing name calling, gas-lighting, and bullying is not.
Exactly @Owlx imagine being a new player and coming here for a question about werewolf tufts and finding this level of dissension? So thank you for pointing that out.
@Lucoire i thought this was a conversation - when and where did it stop being a discussion because I am not seeing that.
And what is a prefect outside of The HP movies?
@ClairabusGryff
No, there are several monologues. To me, that's one of the fundamental issues here: to many people talking and too few people listening. Too little empathy, too much want to convince.
Ask yourself: would you want to have a conversation with someone who only repeats the same thing over and over again - with slight variations in how it is phrased? Or would you rather have a conversation with someone who is willing to listen to you and to UNDERSTAND your perspective?
@Lucoire too few people listening? Everyone here is listening to, and responding to, each other.
People are, as you say, repeating the same thing over and over again because this forum needs change, and so far it’s only been superficial. So what, we just accept that and stop pulling for how we feel it SHOULD be? Just because some people are tired of hearing it? We’re tired of all the same issues cropping up, hence the repeated messages.
As @ClairabusGryff said, we want these issues resolved so that new members coming in can find what they’re looking for, get the help that they seek, all without seeing the animosity and thinking what the...?
Tell me, @MrSciGuy, what does "understanding" mean to you? And what do you think of "empathy"?
Well depending on how it’s used, it has different meanings. Why do you ask?
@MrSciGuy Well, @HPWULOLA said:
It is important that players maintain respect and understanding during these conversations.
And I'd like to know how you interprete that statement in order to follow it. What would you do to express and maintain said "understanding"?
@Lucoire Im not going to continue to go back and forth with you on this.
I think we’re all trying to be understanding to others. We’re all trying to help, offer suggestions, provide tips, etc. But that is difficult to maintain when the environment becomes hostile.
I would then ask why, out of everything said in this entire thread, you singled that out to ask about.
So you're avoiding the conversation. Quod erat demonstrantum.
I was asking because to me it looks like you're bullying the HPWU-Staff. You're doing the very thing that you claim to be fighting against. You've become that what you set out to destroy.
And the way @Keybounce was treated here wasn't respectfully and empathic either.
So this is usually where @Acumen would jump in with something witty and apropos, but alas, I am not he and nowhere near his master of wit. instead I present you with Banksy's version of the UK Parliament, which as someone else pointed out to me, this is beginning to look a lot like that. Maybe you won't be as amused as I am, but hey, I'm trying to diffuse the situation here. Work with me okay?
Personally, I like the superficial changes. I think the argument/discussion focuses on a misunderstanding that developers and designers can work in tandem and both groups can focus on more than one thing at a time. In other words, while there are some mechanics of the forums that need to be fixed, it doesn't mean we can't have "pretty" also.
As for the moderation aspect, I think the majority of you know my position. I fully respect and salute the current mods but those of you who remember me probably remember my parting post. That touches on a need for a community based moderation system. By community based, I mean helping each other support the community and not return toxicity with toxicity. There are some who stay juuuuuust inside the line of the TOS but you can feel the unnecessary snark in response to an otherwise innocent post. These people know exactly what they're doing and how they're technically not breaking the rules, while still portraying an aggressive or otherwise divisive stance, merely for the sole purpose of causing discontent.
I stated my vast experience as a moderator for various forums and because of that, I have a tendency to see the clues of how a forum is going to go pretty quickly. That's not me patting myself on the back; it's me saying as I've said before, a resolution needs to be made before a resolution needs to be made. In other words, if it's allowed to get beyond a point of enforcement, there is no return to order (See Also: World of Warcraft, circa 2008 on).
Personally, I would be more present and more involved if given a reason to do so. I still read the forums but I very rarely involve myself with them actively because of the vitriol so often used as subtext. Overall, I still love the community and think it's an incredible group of people with a shared interest. But many seem to forget the "shared" part and focus on the "differences". I'm guilty myself at times.
I've made friends specifically because of this community... friends planning to meet up (for real) and go Pottering together... not just local, but global. That's pretty awesome, imo.
Being a moderator isn't easy. It requires objectivity AND compassion. It requires an understanding that not everyone is the same, not everyone interprets things the same, not everyone is as cool as Ravenclaws!
Look at the type of game we're playing in the middle of what's going on in the world. That makes us family. Family is going to disagree and that's fine. But we need to remember the difference between discussion and argument, between understanding (not agreeing, per se) and obstinance.
But I'm old enough to ground you if needed. 😜
I have a bottle full of Flint water. Don't make me use it.
But I'm old enough to ground you if needed. 😜
You're an excellent mediator. We all should aim to be more like that, grounding, de-escalating. Offering perspective and compromise.
Work with me okay?
And provide you with an opportunity to further derail what started as an Announcement of changes to the Forum-UI?
But okay, let's re-iterate and try to find a common-ground: a compromise.
Moderation
Since the Forum has rules and certain legal requirements, it is necessary to have someone to enforce (and explain) those rules:
Mediating
Overall however, Moderating should be a "It's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it"-method. It is our responsibility to ensure that the number of cases where it is needed is as low as possible. Therefore we should all aim to be constructive.
Conclusion
Moderation is needed but only as a last step. It should be done by someone who knows all the rules / requirements and as such, a Niantic Employee or sufficiently briefed contractor would be best.
Most of what happens in the forum should be mediating. There are many "veterans" around here that are (as @Craeft said) "old enough" to provide a certain calm and that have the experience required to guide new players into the community.
back to topic
What I like the most about the CSS-Changes is that it's now finally possible to format text as headlines, lists, etc. in the MOBILE VIEW. That's sooooooo helpful (since I imagine that most people first enter the forum from their phones).
@Lucoire - Thank you for reminding everyone what effective moderation looks like
However, unless implemented, the outline provided is an ideal and not a reality
@OriginalCaruso
Thank you for reminding everyone what effective moderation looks like
My goal was not to remind but to clarify. Since we earlier discovered our different understanding in what "moderation" means, I wanted to ensure that we're talking about the same goal using the same words. You know, avoiding linguistic misunderstandings.
However, unless implemented, the outline provided is an ideal and not a reality
Which part are you dissatisfied with? Where are the requirements unfulfilled? (preferably with a link to an example)
@Lucoire - You have engaged in enough contentious threads (and acted as protagonist) to know the answer to your own question
I have clearly articulated my views within this thread - and in response to your request to not keep repeating the same thing, I kindly request you re-read from the top down, you will find several other forum members expressing the same view, we cannot all be wrong
I believe that moderation should be objective. It should follow clear rules and have no need for "interpretation". Therefore moderation for the most part should be automatable.
The most important Lesson I learned from training AI is that learning and improving is done by pointing out what's correct and what isn't. More specifically:
Inappropriate language / Insults
Keeping that in mind, I think overall the automated "inappropriate language filter" is in a good spot but it needs to be refined. There are some things that are incorrectly flagged and some that are incorrectly not flagged. I think we should start a Forum-Post pointing out "incorrectly flagged" words to allow for that filter to be refined.
One of those "incorrectly not flagged" examples is "inappropriate phrases in a foreign language." But since this is an english forum (that's explicitly marked as english), all non-english posts and phrases (be it german, french, spanish, etc) should automaticly be flagged and (at least temporarily) reprimanded. Also, Posts with redacted words by Users with an active "warning" should be completely rejected - instead of "sent to moderation".
Now after reading this ask yourself: would this unfairly and disproportionally punish dyslectics?
Derailing / Multiple Posts
To solve this, I'd allow ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️people who have no active warnings (or are otherwise blocked from this) to do the following:
Trolling
... is subjective. As such I believe - even after having observed it time and time again - it needs to be handled using the objective rules. It is currently possible to mark posts as "Report: Trolling" and "Report: Harassing" but I've never done that so I don't have any experience in how it works or could be improved.
@Lucoire, given that you have spoken at length about "soft" approaches to forum governance, I am surprised to see such a hard line here.
Firstly, your post supposes that any tangent or evolution of a topic is inherently bad, and is punitive. If the aim is to build a supportive community, then sending all community-building posts to moderation is rather counter-productive, and will deter conversation. Not everyone has the purely analytical approach or focus that you do.
Secondly, I understand that this forum is marked English, but I can't find navigation into another language. Also, non-English posts are not against the rules, according to the community guidelines. Not every poster is able to communicate well in English, and so surely your principle of empathy should come into play?
Thirdly, just because someone is a prolific poster with five stars, doesn't make them someone with the empathy, patience, objectivity or maturity to have the responsibilities that you suggested, even if free of warnings. It should not be an automatic right. All it does is show how often they post, not the quality.
I am sorry, @Lucoire, but for all your love of specifics and analysis, I feel this falls short of the calls to empathy, understanding and a gentle touch.
(212 words)
Firstly, your post supposes that any tangent or evolution of a topic is inherently bad, and is punitive. If the aim is to build a supportive community, then sending all community-building posts to moderation is rather counter-productive, and will deter conversation.
Yes and no. There is "off-topic" that's okay, and there's off-topic that's not okay. @HPWULOLA expressed some while ago that the topic of this forum should always be Harry Potter, the HP-Universe and the HPWU-Game. Things that don't fit into any other category but still "related" to one of the 3 mentioned topics should be filed into "Community Forum Feedback".
Secondly, I understand that this forum is marked English, but I can't find navigation into another language.
Top-Left corner. Only available languages are "English and Japanese".
Thirdly, just because someone is a prolific poster with five stars, doesn't make them someone with the empathy, patience, objectivity or maturity to have the responsibilities that you suggested, even if free of warnings. It should not be an automatic right. All it does is show how often they post, not the quality.
Admited. I don't have a good solution for that.
I am sorry, @Lucoire, but for all your love of specifics and analysis, I feel this falls short of the calls to empathy, understanding and a gentle touch.
You're right, I failed. My goal was to provide a creative solution but I seem to have misunderstood the request. That being said, I did ask for specifics...
Thank you for the screenshot. That option isn't available in my phone browser. Perhaps the current solution is the best one at present - forum members with the language skills support as best they can.
As for the attempt, I think it just showed how difficult a task managing this community is, and that getting the balance right between maintenance, control and nurture is very delicate. Failure is not always a bad thing.
(72 words)
@Lucoire I got dragged here through a mention. I will keep this simple. People's request for moderation is due to huge amounts of mediation attempts failing. That is also why I'm pretty much never on here anymore as well. What you have suggested has long since been tried and failed.
Additionally pacifists never win battles. The only option is to leave.