Do Something About Freeloaders!!
CeruleanGirl
Posts: 637 ✭✭✭✭✭
Yes, I know this has been said many times but they are not listening! Something NEEDS to be done about the players who enter fortress battles and do nothing! I was just in a battle with 3 other players, two other aurors and a professor, with 19 enemies. The other two aurors did absolutely nothing. The professor and I did our best but I saw immediately that two players were not going to help so I wasn't going to waste any potions and the professor either did not know how to or didn't want to do any team helping even though I gave her all of my extra focus so I was knocked out once. We ran out of time, of course. There were three enemies left with 30 seconds to go, I was on one, the professor was on the other. I beat mine with a couple of seconds to spare, not sure if the professor beat theirs, but noone fought the last one anyway, so we were out of luck.
PLEASE do something about this! Time-outs at the very least for non-participants in battles. Yes I realize that sometimes it can't be helped. It's happened to me. I've started a battle and then had something urgent happen that I needed to take care of. However, this can't be the case most of the time, not with as often as it happens. Honestly, I would be fine with being timed out if I have a battle that I don't participate in, even if it's not intentional, if it meant that the ones who do it intentionally would be timed out as well! The length of the time out could be proportional to the player's history. If it's their first time not participating, 10 minutes, if it's their 20th, 24 hours!
You NEED to crack down on these players, they are ruining fortress battles for everyone else! Do we need to start sharing the names of people who do this so we know who to avoid? If nothing else is done, it may come down to that!
Comments
So what do you propose? What features do you want to see implemented that would solve the issue - aside from the timeout?
Or is 95% of this wall of text just a rant?
@Lucoire Wow, rude much?
I and many others have proposed other measures before, which were ignored. This post is asking that at least something be done. The point of the post is that even a simple time-out would be a step in the right direction. It is a call to the powers-that-be to at least look at this issue and take it seriously, as they don't seem to have done thus far.
Perhaps instead of criticizing the form the message takes, you could try to provide either some support or an opposing argument. If you only responded to my post to belittle it, then you really have no reason to respond at all, do you?
Have a nice day!
A timeout won't solve the issue in my opinion. It will only cause the freeloaders to exploit the situation in a different way.
If I had to guess what the goal of a freeloader is, then the obvious answer is
Now what Resources are used / consumed in Challenges?
Optimizing by the resource time can only be done by increasing the amount by which the other resources are consumed - primarily potions.
Optimizing by Activity is what your suggestion seems to identify as the criteria by which to identify freeloaders. Activity however is not a "rare" resource, it can easily be simulated (as each of the 3 professions has a zero-focus strategic spell that can be exploited for this usecase).
Energy - at least to me - seems to be the resource that most freeloaders seem to optimize for - which as you know is something that I suggested a feature for.
As for what you called "rude": ask yourself, would you enjoy reading your own post if you were a developer or a community moderator? Would you enjoy reading the rant of someone that is angry / frustrated?
If the forum mostly consisted of angry shouting, wouldn't you prefer to just ignore it?
@Lucoire Hmm, I believe I see your point, but I am not sure how it fits into the bigger picture. What is the Energy feature that you suggested? I am sure I probably read it at some point, but my memory is not the best, so would you refresh it, please?
@CeruleanGirl I pinged you in the other post... and I'm sorry but I may have mistaken you for someone else.
Mea culpa.
@Lucoire As to your last point that you added on, yes, I felt that was a rude thing for you to say (or type.) However, sometimes it's hard to get a sense of the intent behind something when it's stated in text form. So perhaps you didn't mean it to come across to me that way.
I do understand your sentiment, but it does not take into account the fact that we have been calling for some sort of action on this issue for months. Perhaps a bit of frustration or even anger is understandable and even justified? It's their job, is it not, to deal with people who may not be exactly happy with the way things have been handled? They don't have to enjoy it. Quite frankly, my post was pretty mild compared to some of those I have read on here.
I respect you as a knowledgeable and helpful member of this forum, but sometimes it just seems like you are looking for a friendly argument. So, don't be surprised if you get one! 😉
Honestly, though, I am curious about your suggestions on how to deal with the problem. I am the first to admit that I am in it for the fun, and not particularly knowledgeable about the technical aspects of the game. I frequently think about things I would like to see in the game, but have no idea if they would even be possible in a programming sense. I am sure that much of what I would like is just wishful thinking!
@Lucoire Thank you, I will go check it out.
to me personally if there's a sign of that, i prefer forfeit the battle or else would be very costly especially at dark chambers.
and runestone is rather abundant recently isnt it.
but sometimes i'll look for another teammates if they would continue by observing their activity.
@Kodokmag Yes, you are right, I should have bailed. I hoped we would still be able to win. Bad choice!
I've suggested before that people who run from a battle attract SOME of the opponents to follow them, much as a pack of wild dogs will attack the person running from them rather than the person facing them. This wouldn't solve every problem, but it **** sure would help. I've been abandoned too many times, and I tend to fight it out, even when I know it's hopeless, to get SOMETHING for my runestone.
Maybe my suggestion above could be extended. If a player takes no action (potion, spell, or personal combat) for a minute, they are assumed to have run away, giving the rest a chance to succeed.
But I don't think the developers give a ****. They certainly aren't going to change something just because any of us ask for it. For example, there are people who think the game needs more challenges, and people who can't keep up with what we have now. The issue is how much time we can afford to play. A person who can put in 3 to 6 hours a day on the game probably wants more challenges. A person who can only manage an hour or two has trouble achieving the tasks now. There's an obvious answer, and I've suggested it, but I feel sure the developers would rather eat their own children (if any) than admit they aren't omniscient in the development of this game. (I've written two computer games, and been a formal play-tester for many more.)
It's annoying.
Maybe if one only gets the goods when one actually defeats an enemy. That could be feasable.
I allways think they just had a connection error. I try to keep it positive. You can see them not hitting the join button in the lobby.
As I said I have accidentally not participated a few times because I was waiting in the lobby for more players to join and got distracted by family or whatever and then I’m like “Oh, ****!” and I look and the rewards are on the screen and then I feel bad.
Just came to say that nothing that @Lucoire said was in my opinion rude. All questions were pretty valid 🙂 As long as there are bugs and glitches, time out ain't an option, as algorithms can't separate someone who glitches out from someone who just is a bunghole. Or maybe they could, but I highly doubt that would be the case, because it would then be easy to write code to get rid of the bugs. For someone of course that would too be possible, some people are wizards with code writing 🙂 The same problem lies within everyone of those penalizing suggestions, and that is that the game is broken. The energy distribution would be fairest of the solutions, as if you would go to the battle and fight, you would lose energy, so if you glitch out, you don't lose anything you wouldn't have lost anyway. I support this, if some sanctions/rewards things are done. Everything else is exploitable and there always will be those people who will do that.
@CeruleanGirl Stones and glass houses? If you have been a freeloader, accidental or otherwise, you probably aren't the person to be in the forums complaining about freeloaders. Be the change you want to see. If you're queuing for a 6-10 minute fortress, you should have the time and the attention to sit not more than 2 minutes in a lobby and be ready to participate. If you don't have that 2 minutes, you don't have time to do the fortress.
I've made the mistake of getting distracted once and felt bad - it is the regular offenders (or are these bots?) that I think this thread is really targeted towards.
I like the idea of some of the opponents following someone that bails early (likely someone that entered with a R1 Brilliant runestone).
I'm not sure if timeouts for no action would work, it seems likely that it would be possible to counter that easily. I would advocate that to receive full rewards, you must have a minimum contribution (which can be adjusted according to your profession level as that is seen in the lobby). Maybe WXP is halved and chance at family foundable fragment reduced to 0% if insufficient contribution?
@Murdo666 How do you define regular offenders? I'm not sure I've ever seen the same players twice in the Knight Bus. Anyone who has freeloaded, either intentionally or by being distracted, is someone that has made their group frustrated and angry. Those feelings of frustration and anger are what motivates a thread like this, and I think it's extremely inappropriate for someone who has been part of the problem to express any resentment at other people who have also been part of the problem.
I've done over 5000 Fortresses, not all of them Knight Bus admittedly, but a substantial number of them. I have failed to be active on two occasions, when the game created the disconnect loop at the beginning of two events. I have since refused to use the Knight Bus at the beginning of the events just in case it's broken. It is entirely possible to consistently have the courtesy to not get distracted for a few minutes to complete a fortress challenge.
I accept that having bad teammates is a risk inherent in playing with random strangers, and don't really see a need for punishment. I like Lucoire's suggestion of energy reimbursement. But I really object to people taking issue with other people participating in behavior they excuse in themselves for some reason.
@Attrition I feel that you are just looking for an argument. As @Murdo666 pointed out, I was complaining about the intentional freeloaders, which I have never and will never be. In addition, I also said more than once that I would expect to receive the punishment, whatever it may be, even if my lack of participation was not intentional. Telling people that they are never allowed to get distracted is naive and frankly sounds like someone who has no real responsibilities to deal with. So, to answer your rather obnoxious question, “Stones and glass houses?” No, I don’t feel that is what I am doing. Thanks for asking, though.
@Odetshki I was referring to @Lucoire’s comment “Or is 95% of this wall of text just a rant?” And yes, although I have acknowledged his/her (sorry) point, I felt it could have been expressed more politely. I don’t hold grudges, however, so all is good.
@CeruleanGirl I'm not looking for an argument, I just don't understand how you differentiate between people who do it intentionally and people who just get distracted? If getting distracted is acceptable then why not just assume anyone you see freeloading is just distracted instead of assuming they are intentionally gaming the system?
Telling people they are never allowed to get distracted for a period of several minutes isn't at all naive, and I've demonstrated that personally over literally thousands of fortresses. It's exactly the opposite of having no responsibilities. I'm someone who takes responsibilities seriously, in family, in work, and even in game situations. If I have family or work obligations that will take precedence, I don't inflict myself on a group of people trying to enjoy a game. I make sure that I have 10 minutes or so minimum available to meet my team responsibility.
You may not be comfortable with it, but the reality is this is absolutely a stones and glass house situation. You don't get to complain about the neighbors driving too fast on your street if you drive just as fast.
You may not be comfortable with it, but the reality is this is absolutely a stones and glass house situation. You don't get to complain about the neighbors driving too fast on your street if you drive just as fast.
Uhm, no. "You don't get to complain... if..." is stupid.
Complain all you want... as long as you don't set up different criteria for others than you do for yourself. @CeruleanGirl is absolutely free to demand change - especially given that she accepted that the change would also impact her.
I think the point that @CeruleanGirl is making is real life urgency’s come up. How do we foresee those instances? We can’t! Real life can and does occur during fortress battles. One instance of mine was my brand new puppy got stung in the mouth by a bee and was screaming which I had never heard until that moment in my life. I had just defeated a foe but had to tend to my puppy who weighed less then a pound then and I was so concerned about anaphylactic shock.
I had a battle last week where there was an auror only hexing foes and didn’t engage a single foe but every 6 seconds was hexing foes. There were only four of us in the battle and I was the other auror so it wasn’t me doing the hexing. So this wasn’t a connectivity issue but someone who didn’t want to expend spell energy. These are the people that have to be addressed. This is 💯 absolute intentional free-loading and in my book is theft of our spell energy for their very selfish CXP and fortress fragment gains. As she stated in the original post she has never once intentionally free-loaded, nor have I.
So how can HPWU address the intentional free-loading? I don’t know the answer there and there have been some fantastic ideas floating around by greater wizards and witches then myself but I have not once seen a single Niantic representative chime in on addressing the issue so unfortunately at this point I don’t think they will be doing anything about it.
But I do applaud everyone who comes up with these fantastic ideas and continues to demand change.
What I need is a friends lobby so I can send invites to ppl in my friends' list so we dont have to beacon and search...
@Lucoire "You don't get to complain if..." isn't stupid at all. The word for complaining about behavior in other people that one excuses in themselves is "hypocrisy".
@ClairabusGryff Emergencies are a different matter entirely. Any actual emergency should always take priority over something game related. But getting distracted isn't an emergency.
The problem with any sort of punishment is how to discern the difference between someone's life emergency or a game disconnect failure vs. someone being distracted or intentionally exploiting other players. That's one reason I really like @Lucoire energy equalization idea. It's less of a punishment and more of just setting everything right. I would have no problem getting docked energy if I got disconnected, and it would discourage free loading if you're going to lose the energy anyway.
@Lucoire Thank you. I appreciate the support.
@Attrition if you go back and read my post I never said the word emergencies I said urgencies and that was what @CeruleanGirl stated in her original post as well. The reason I bring it up is that there is a large difference between an emergency and urgency. And ultimately at the end of the day this is a game and I think urgency trumps a fortress battles any day of the week. In my humble opinion.
Honestly, I think we are splitting hairs at this point simply because HPWU is not going to do anything to address the freeloaders so us continuing to argue symantecs is a fruitless point. Until HPWU fixes the 100’s of bugs and the 1,000’s of EXTREMELY unhappy and angry players we are just circling the drain.
@Lucoire i have thought more and more about your proposal and I do actually support it as I think it would address the long term issues with free loaders since they would have to pay out SE during these situations be they out of their control (connectivity issues or urgencies or family situations) or purposeful (potential free loaders). So it just took me some time to digest your idea. So thank you for bringing it up.
@Attrition When did I say I excuse it in myself? I never said that and, in fact, mentioned more than once that I would expect to be held accountable as well, even if it’s not deliberate. I did not suggest trying to differentiate between deliberate and accidental freeloading and in fact suggested any punishment be universal.
Also, in regards to your making light of my admission that I have been distracted, I never said I have been distracted because I was watching TV or suddenly needed a snack. I specificallly said in my original post that I have been guilty of non-participation because something urgent happened. Yes, obviously, it would have been better if I had thought to back out of the lobby and if I am able to, I do. However, sometimes something happens that takes precedence and causes one to lose focus on the less important thing, which in most cases would be the cell phone game and not the real life issue that requires immediate attention.
So, yes, the fact that you are apparently willfully misinterpreting my statements if not downright ignoring parts of them tells me you are being deliberately argumentative.
Thank you for your input.
@ClairabusGryff Unfortunately, I believe you are correct that nothing will ever be done about the issue. We can dream though!
BTW, I am not sure if you noticed we ended up in a Fortress Battle together a week or two ago. I meant to mention to you, that is actually the very first time I have ever been in a battle with someone I recognize! I got ridiculously excited over that. 😊
@CeruleanGirl i remember it very well and wished we could message each other because it made me so happy to see you in a fortress! I have like 115 people in my friend list and so if and when I see a friend in a battle especially someone I honestly respect absolutely made my month!!
And please don’t ever stop pushing the change that you want to see in the world!
@ClairabusGryff You said urgencies, but I would certainly classify the incident with the puppy you described as an emergency.
@CeruleanGirl I believe distractions are frivolous, but if you were referring to serious issues, then we may have just had a miscommunication. My objection was solely based on a demand to do something about a problem you participate in. That judgment was based on the word distractions, which I wouldn't use to describe serious, urgent, or emergent situations. If you were using distractions to mean more serious events than conversations or TV then I apologize for my part of the dispute.
@Attrition and I would whole heartedly agree with you that anything that happens to our four legged family members such as a bee sting should be considered as an emergency but I didn’t want to be insensitive to people that would 💯 disagree with that. BTW my puppy ended up being fine with the bee sting he just ended up with a very fat and swollen precious puppy lip! And he doesn’t chase bees anymore!! 😂😂😂😂